Forum > Theater of Operations: World at War
Counterattack at Belle Fontaine
choppinlt:
...and my retort. :D
Great question, and one that I think I have an answer to. In short it sounds like you have the same basic ideas I have. For this scenario the Amis have no pre-registration. Registration is determined by a number of things. In ToO an arty unit can be given a Registration fire mission. This links an arty unit to a ground unit (i.e. the arty is more likely to respond to fire mission requests while defending). This implies that the defending unit would get 1 or 2 registration points.
Beyond that registration is determined by unit posture, with cohesion, leadership and experience being factors. Units that are in a "prepared" posture get 1or 2 registration pts on the tactical level. Fortified posture gets 2 or 3 registration pts. FYI, I am talking from a CM battlefield perspective. ASL and other games may need to tweak the number of registration points based on how their system works. Which means that I assumed that attackers received no pre-registration.
I don't recall the mechanism for arty in ASL, however it seems to me that attackers can simply write down and declare where and when they want their prep bombardments to occur in the pre-game. The attacker then conducts missions with on-call arty without registration pts. Does that work or make sense?
Christian Knudsen:
I imagine registration missions would be pretty closely tied to posture anyways - So a registration mission would allow a unit to get TRP/Preregistration, the number of which would then be determined by posture (as it took time to conduct pre-registration fires, etc). I imagine the way soft factors would affect this is by adjusting the speed at which a unit increases its defensive posture?
There is nothing wrong with the attacker in a scenario having no registration, I've no idea how historical it was, especially considering counter-battery fires, but if we are denying TRPs to attackers, then we need to make some minor shifts.
Right now, pre-registration does a few things for you in ASL. It makes battery access easier, it vastly increases the accuracy of spotting rounds, and allows one to call a fire-for effect without having to first place a spotting round at all, if one wishes. It also allows the use of barrages (A linear OBA mission, essentially) and creeping barrages. These are only allowed if the attacker has a pre-registered hex, so if we are not allowing these for engagement attackers, we might need to have a mechanism in TO that would allow an attacker to set this up. Or we could just say no barrages allowed for the attacker, although that would deny the attacker some interesting options for laying down smoke curtains and such.
There is also a bombardment mechanism, where most of the map gets attacked by a 2 morale check before the battle kicks off. I have chosen to represent this by the following:
3.12 PRE-SCENARIO BOMBARDMENT:
A TO engagement preceded within a two-hour period by a bombardment from an artillery battery or batteries of over 100mm that fire(s) an Area Fire or Bombardment mission, or any Specific Target or Air Bombardment mission, may cause damage to defender fortifications and the map terrain. Note that damage to defending units due to pre-engagement bombardment is already calculated by TO, so only terrain/fortifications can be damaged in this step. Once the scenario defender has completed setup, but prior to the scenario attacker doing so, a bombardment is conducted per C1.8, except that only terrain and fortifications are affected. In addition, any fortification counter not addressed in C1.822 (EX: Trench, Foxhole, Sangar, Panji) if in a bombardment hex is is attacked with a ML of 9. Any unit in a hex in which terrain/fortifications are damaged/eliminated is unaffected, but may be re-setup as desired by the defender, and will retain/gain concealment if able to do so as normal prior to attacker setup. If the bombardment is conducted by an artillery battery ≤ 155mm, and/or by an aerial bombardment conducted by a bomber unit, then all terrain/fortification MC are at -1.
Long story short, the bombardment happens in TO, the unit is affected by it there and in the force generation process as per, and then the terrain gets attacked to represent the bombardment. This has nothing to do with pre-registration, btw, just another thing that the system can do.
Barrages are what I now need to tweak though, and why I need to know how this would be handled in TO.
choppinlt:
Your assumptions are correct about soft factors, speed, etc. Attackers didn't typically have true TRP's, but they could spend lots of time carefully planning, plotting and surveying where they wanted their planned bombardments to go.While it was less than optimal, it is very reasonable to assume that planned bombardments on the attack are going to be near or on the intended target area. Historically speaking, TRP's on the attack are a possibility though.
I see this as an ASL transitioning issue. Having some explanation of ToO, how do you accurately reflect what you are trying to accomplish? Does the declaration of pre-planned missions completely resolve the issue? E.g. Pre-planned Fire Mission Sheet: Turn 1-1 Btty of 155's hits hex 1746 (centerpoint) with HE; Turn 2-the 155's switch to hex 1751 (centerpoint) with HE (representing a creeping barrage), 1 Btty 105's hits hex 2021 (centerpoint) with HE; Turn 3, 1 Btty 4.2-In mortars hit hex 1649 (centerpoint) with smoke....etc. Anything that is NOT pre-planned must be called in with spotting, etc.
Or you could allow registration points with special stipulations for the attacker in ASL. I don't recommend TRP's for the attacker in CM due to how they work, but CM certainly allows pre-planned bombardments.
Thoughts, questions?
Christian Knudsen:
I think the level of detail you are talking about here in terms of pre-planned missions is way more than is required, honestly, and is already achievable by using ASL's pre-registration rules, hexes for which must be plotted before the other side sets up.
Perhaps we just allow attackers who have dedicated battery support to have access to a barrage (creeping or otherwise) or a pre-registered hex that would be only usable on Turn 1, 2, 3, or whatever, so long as you indicated it before setup, but then penalize such use by severely limiting what that battery (module) would be able to do afterward, by adjusting the battery access chit draw. So you would get your barrage or pre-reg hex for one turn, but afterward you would have a hard time getting anything out of that module, and nothing before. And if the battle ends before it's fired? Too bad.
Bombardments I see as totally different. A Bombardment is something that happens before the engagement starts, affects the targeted unit in TO only (said effects affecting the ASL OOB when the engagement OB is built), and is only resolved "in" ASL vs the terrain. What I am talking about above only happens during the engagement itself.
The question then becomes whether we allow artillery batteries to fire "offensive preregistration" missions, and whether that would be at all historical. If we don't allow this, and I can see some reasons why we wouldn't, how do we represent the sort of "planning, plotting, and surveying" that certainly took place before an offensive, i.e. an artillery fireplan? And is it worth representing this at the tactical resolution scale we are looking at, or do we just leave attacker pre-reg out of it, let the artillery do pre-engagement bombardments in TO however they like, and then give the attacker an option to use barrages as above?
choppinlt:
In ToO, 'dedicated' artillery is any battery that has been assigned to a specific Bn or BG for their use only. A time delay (for planning and integration with the assigned unit) is necessary before an arty unit can be 'dedicated'. Once that planning time has elapsed the unit has access to that battery (or batteries). Dedicated arty is the only arty that a unit on the attack may receive. Units on the defensive can receive fire support from dedicated, direct and general support assets. And you are correct, pre engagement bombardments are accounted for in ToO before an engagement commences meaning the effects are already assessed in to the transition information. You have some good ideas regarding the impact on fortifications though.
After hearing more, I am inclined to say yes to some sort of pre game registration for the attackers in ASL. Again, my issue is with CM and how TRP's work. I think what you are doing can be accomplished in a couple of ways. Having a Fire Plan would be a great way to accomplish it IMHO. But it looks like you have some great ideas regarding prereg that covers it well. Further thoughts? :)
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