Dogs Of War Vu

Sim/Strategy/War => Games Discussion => Steel Beasts Pro => Topic started by: Rinix on October 20, 2016, 11:59:58 PM

Title: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 20, 2016, 11:59:58 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11032-anti-tank-ditch/?do=findComment&comment=163870
Quote
Why not place dragon teeth, really. This is crazy.

Heck, you could also use some of those concrete "Bremer walls". If you use half height, defenders can still shoot over them. Abusing emplacements for this is bad for the frame rate, bad for future compatibility of such scenarios, etc.

I understand that there is a need for excavated obstacles, and you'll get them, once that the new terrain engine has been successfully implemented. Once that it is there we'll start working on dynamic terrain, and that would include the ability to dig trenches of any size.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Hafer on October 27, 2016, 12:51:06 PM
Looking forward for the new terrain engine. But how long do we have to wait? I mean at 2015 i thought it would come out in the first half of 2016. Now its delayed for Q1 2017. I'm getting older and older....

PS. 4 verification questions to post here? ;-)))
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Red2112 on October 27, 2016, 01:25:49 PM
Looking forward for the new terrain engine. But how long do we have to wait? I mean at 2015 i thought it would come out in the first half of 2016. Now its delayed for Q1 2017. I'm getting older and older....

PS. 4 verification questions to post here? ;-)))

In a recent letter from Ssnake (included replacement USB stick), he states to expect new terrain handling in March 2017.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on October 27, 2016, 01:34:42 PM
PS. 4 verification questions to post here? ;-)))

Hi Hafer

The anti spam measures are in place to prevent any spam or b.s posts. As you can see from our forum that with other measures, it is effective.

It is hoped that people do not artificially increase their post count by bumping random posts.

Regards
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Longknife on October 27, 2016, 03:35:05 PM

It is hoped that people do not artificially increase their post count by bumping random posts.



Bump...

(http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/pT5/bkM/pT5bkM6ac.jpeg)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on October 27, 2016, 03:39:10 PM

It is hoped that people do not artificially increase their post count by bumping random posts.



Bump...

(http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/pT5/bkM/pT5bkM6ac.jpeg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/14/4b/e0/144be049c1d94dbd3b7a9baee7124d56.jpg)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 20, 2016, 04:04:31 AM
Looking forward for the new terrain engine. But how long do we have to wait? I mean at 2015 i thought it would come out in the first half of 2016. Now its delayed for Q1 2017. I'm getting older and older....

PS. 4 verification questions to post here? ;-)))

In a recent letter from Ssnake (included replacement USB stick), he states to expect new terrain handling in March 2017.
Judging by the 4.009 release notes (http://www.steelbeasts.com/updates/SBProPE_4-009_RN.pdf), we will see the new terrain engine in January 2017.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 23, 2016, 10:33:21 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11128-did-i-just-screw-up/?do=findComment&comment=165530
Quote
No. It's the second half of the 4.0 update which had originally been planned to be included right from the start. Unfortunately that didn't work out, so we had a bit of a "hair on fire" moment between May and August, released 4.0 without the new terrain engine, and coming quarter we'll offer a free update that will then (finally) bring the transition to high res terrain.

Note that the terrain will actually not change that much. The existing maps are based on 50...30m grids, typically, and while we will convert them and add some jitter on top to make it look better, the underlying data don't change. This is a good thing because "compatibility" with older scenarios, and because "manageable file sizes"
Then why the change in the first place?
Because the New Terrain is an enabler for future feature updates. Without it we couldn't even think of tackling the tasks ahead. It's like replacing the plumbing in your home. When you're done, you still have the same lines for water supply and sewage, except that the new ones (hopefully) stop leaking. And we add some connectors for future plumbing work to expand the system, so to speak.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on December 09, 2016, 01:33:08 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11112-sb-pro-pe-4010-released/?do=findComment&comment=165922
I didn't post this for a while because I was trying to decipher if Ssnake meant we're getting the new terrain engine 3 months from now, or if we're getting the new terrain engine next month and a series of performance-improving patches after that:
Quote
We are working on improvements, but they will only be released in the next update along with the new terrain. The latest improvements were considered "too experimental" for a public release (we really want to run things by the beta testers first). Like I mentioned on other occasions, this is a long-term task in a way. 4.0. isn't suffering from one specific performance issue, we're bleeding from a thousand papercuts. So we will continue to work on improvements, where most changes will only yield maybe a 10th of a frame per second, as long as we can't identify a specific bottleneck. But of course, a hundred changes here and there bring the framerate up by 10 in that context - and that of course will be noticeable again. Your problem is, I cannot guarantee how fast that will happen, but maybe you wait three more months and try out the next update before committing to a new computer.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on December 09, 2016, 03:00:21 PM
Interesting.

eSim should take their time and release when it is stable. There are a lot of unanswered questions concerning the terrain and the affect it will have on our systems. Not to mention mp games. There are a lot of L.O.S. calculations going on.

Thanks for posting this Rinix
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on December 09, 2016, 08:07:39 PM
I just ran some rough calculations based on Ssnake's description of how HGT files will be replaced (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10355-sb-pro-pe-40-discussion-thread/?page=9#comment-150890). Take them with a grain of salt:
Quote
While I'm at it. Embedding map data in scenario files was a convenient (if wasteful) feature, but it can no longer maintained. We tried, but we had to come to accept the fact that this old, round peg simply won't fit the new square hole, no matter how hard we hammered on it. As a consequence: HGT files need to be converted to LNT. A future upgrade will also bring HNT files to complement LNTs, but initially we don't need them, and that's a good thing, because HNT files can become monstrously huge. Also, for each LNT there's also the need to generate an MMM file (more on that further below).
...
But LNT files are much bigger than their old HGT counterparts, and what's more, each needs a "min max map" (MMM file) which is both large in size and computationally intensive (converting the 1.5 MByte Hannover-Weserbergland height map takes about 39 minutes raw computing time, plus another seven minutes for the navmesh, resulting in about 75 MByte for the LNT, 125 MByte for the MMM; the TER file remains unchanged at about 35 MByte). Fortunately an MMM file (and the navmesh) need to be generated only once for each TER file; there will be no need for a separate navmesh in every scenario file.

Ssnake's figures of 1.5 MB being replaced with 75 MB + 125 MB = 200 MB gives us an file size increase factor of 133.33, which is consistent with what Ssnake has said (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10355-sb-pro-pe-40-discussion-thread/?page=77#comment-156027):
Quote
But you are on borrowed time. Once THAT the high resolution terrain comes (Q1/17) changes are inevitable - simply because high resolution terrain inflates file sizes. Not by a factor 500 as the resolution increase suggests, but still enough to make "map distribution via Assembly Hall" a non-starter, given that most people are on DSL connection with substantially slower upload than download speed, and that some people are still on dial-up connections.

When a combined map sizes exceeds 200 MByte, say, and you have 10 connected clients that are all unprepared, you'd need to squeeze 2 GByte through an 1MBit upload stream, which is a four-and-a-half hour process. So, clients will have to come prepared to a game session.

I suggest that you start training your co-players in the six months that you still have to change habits that will be highly disruptive to others in the future (which probably already are disruptive, just not in a crippling way).

The HGT/height maps folder in Steel Beasts 4.010 is currently 184 MB. 133.33 * 184 MB = 24,5327 MB = 24.5327 GB. ??? The installer probably won't be as large as that. Speaking of installers, another piece of evidence pointing to Steel Beasts supersizing itself in the future comes from the fact that Ssnake has decided that he will likely resume DVD orders (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11012-frozen-install-running-setup/?do=findComment&comment=164428). DVDs range in capacity from 4.7 GB for a single-layer disc to 8.5 GB for a dual-layer disc.

I don't know if my calculations are correct, but it seems likely that Steel Beasts is going to increase its size by some amount.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on December 09, 2016, 09:04:02 PM
Ssnake has decided that he will likely resume DVD orders[/url]. DVDs range in capacity from 4.7 GB for a single-layer disc to 8.5 GB for a dual-layer disc.

I don't know if my calculations are correct, but it seems likely that Steel Beasts is going to increase its size by some amount.

Why not put it on a USB drive?

Interesting calculations Rinix. Hopefully it will not kill frame rates when the new map is used.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on December 09, 2016, 11:47:16 PM
Why not put it on a USB drive?

Interesting calculations Rinix. Hopefully it will not kill frame rates when the new map is used.
Probably cost. Let's assume that the installer is 24 GB in total, and take all media prices from the US electronics retailer Newegg. A 32 GB USB 2.0 drive goes for a little as USD 4.99; its USB 3.0 equivalent goes for as little as USD 8.95. A 20-pack of Verbatim DVD+R DLs (dual-layer DVD discs) goes for USD 24.52, or 0.82 per disc. Since 24 GB would require 3 DVD+R DLs, the total price for them is USD 2.46. I can't find a USB drive on Newegg that can match that cost. And if one is willing to trust Smartbuy, one can get a 50-pack of DVD+R DLs for USD 21.60, or 0.43 per disc/1.29 for 3 discs.

If the installer size is 17 GB or less in total, then only 2 DVD+R DLs are needed. Let's not forget Blu-ray as an option. Even a 24 GB installer would fit on a single BD-R. Prices for 50-packs of BD-Rs are as low as USD 20.99. And there are BD-R DL (dual-layer Blu-ray discs) that can hold up to 50 GB each.

Then again, getting a third party involved will increase production cost per disc. Buying even basic disc duplicators would require an up-front investment of a few hundred USD, and would require eSim Games to do the duplication themselves. They may not have the manpower or time to do it themselves.

As for framerates, Ssnake's mech infantry trailer for Steel Beasts 4.0 didn't show major slowdowns in frame rate at 1080p and 60 FPS, though it did have microstutter. I'm not sure what his computer's specs are.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 01, 2017, 12:43:02 AM
Another thing that would point towards the SB installer being significantly larger is that Ssnake felt compelled to say this alongside his talk about how HGT files would be replaced:
Quote
No. I can't yet tell you how large, exactly, the 4.0 installation will be, or how large the download will be. Once that I have reliable data I will post them.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 09, 2017, 04:25:01 AM
As for framerates, Ssnake's mech infantry trailer for Steel Beasts 4.0 didn't show major slowdowns in frame rate at 1080p and 60 FPS, though it did have microstutter. I'm not sure what his computer's specs are.
I managed to find where Ssnake mentions his specs (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10539-sb-pro-pe-40-hardware-recommendations/). He's running an unnamed Intel Core i7 at 3.5 GHz, and a GTX 980. The i7 has to be an i7-4770K, given that he was talking about having a new computer in July 2013 (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/7206-questions-about-30-ask-the-boss/?page=2#comment-104544), the i7-4770K had just been released, and it ran at 3.5 GHz at stock (http://ark.intel.com/products/75123).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on January 09, 2017, 12:47:08 PM
Thanks for the update Rinix.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 13, 2017, 04:11:37 PM
Increase of size for installer is all but confirmed now. In June, before 4.0 was released, the system requirements were: http://web.archive.org/web/20160617200752/http://www.esimgames.com/?page_id=841
But since at least October, the system specs became and are currently: http://web.archive.org/web/20161020154233/http://www.esimgames.com/?page_id=841
Disc space and RAM requirements have shot up, as have the amounts of VRAM required for the graphics cards. These changes cannot be for 4.010, as the 4.009 release notes say that total permanent disc space used is about 6 GB.

Dividing 3 GB and 5 GB by the rounded figure of 2.4 GB for the 3.027 and 4.010 installers gives us minimum and recommended disc space to installer ratios of 1.25 and 2.083, respectively. Applying these same ratios to the new minimum and recommended disc space figures gives us two estimates for installer size: 3.36 GB and 7.20 GB. The first one will still fit on DVD+Rs, the second one will require DVD+R DLs. Given my assumption that eSim Games is assuming that everyone will have enough disc space, I think the estimate of 7.20 GB is more likely to be accurate.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on January 13, 2017, 04:15:09 PM
(Recommended specs are in parentheses.)

    8 (32) GB RAM


(http://www.desicomments.com/funnypics/funnyanimal244.gif)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 13, 2017, 04:20:56 PM
I forgot to mention that there is some ambiguity about the RAM requirements. Ssnake has previously said that (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10971-time-to-upgrade-pc/#comment-162882):
Quote
16 GBytes would suffice if you need to pinch the penny and if you're not planning to do a lot of map conversion work once that the new terrain engine is out.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Don_prince on January 13, 2017, 04:32:19 PM
YAAAAYYYYYY I have just enoug... 32gb of ram in my laptop...
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Longknife on January 13, 2017, 06:58:05 PM
Wow... And just a year ago when I bought my new PC I thought I was good with 16gm ram.... So much for that.


Have there been any ingame shots of this new terrain engine?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 13, 2017, 08:22:55 PM
Wow... And just a year ago when I bought my new PC I thought I was good with 16gm ram.... So much for that.
It may still be, like I said above. I have 16 GB of RAM too,

Quote
Have there been any ingame shots of this new terrain engine?
Just the trailers for 4.0 before the new terrain engine had to be postponed:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4YBxGDSg5o
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzpzFDkOAgo
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLq7jxmPls4
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 25, 2017, 08:01:07 PM
More news: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11131-will-this-ever-get-fixed/?page=2#comment-167482
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote
off topic,but any idea when the new manual will be avail?
It's done, except for a passage about the new file organization and workflow of map handling in the New Terrain version. Once that the programmers have explained and demonstrated the changes to the rest of the team in a way that we can comprehend we will create a tutorial video for YouTube, and update the manual text. The plan is to have the manual ready when the new terrain engine gets rolled out. We want to run a new print, and naturally we don't want the printed manual to be obsolete from day one.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 29, 2017, 10:46:32 PM
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/01/13/the-flare-path-things-to-come-part-2/
Quote
Bumps. Lumps. Mounds. Trenches. Ditches. Furrows. Foxholes. Craters. Ruts. Scrapes. Knollettes. All things well-stocked contemporary armour sim SBPPE struggles to reproduce accurately at present. Last year’s 4.0 engine upgrade was meant to introduce support for much finer terrain mesh, but performance issues meant the improvements were temporarily shelved. The changes are now scheduled for March and though they won’t transform maps overnight (the cost of purchasing LIDAR-scan data for the game’s reality-based sceneries is prohibitive) will help roads navigate slopes and buildings more naturalistically, and open the door for natty developments like procedurally generated elevation ‘noise’ and drainage ditches.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on February 06, 2017, 03:20:23 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=167931
Quote from: Ssnake
Well, certainly not before the end of the first quarter, potentially it might take until April.

The question is, how thoroughly do you want it tested by us. ;)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on February 06, 2017, 03:34:25 PM
Quote from: Ssnake
Well, certainly not before the end of the first quarter, potentially it might take until April.

The question is, how thoroughly do you want it tested by us. ;)


It is better to wait until tested quite a bit because you know what usually happens..... :(
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on February 07, 2017, 04:50:29 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=167977
Ssnake says he's cautiously optimistic about performance improvements for SB that will come with the new terrain engine.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on February 07, 2017, 05:02:33 PM
Thanks for the updates Rinix.

It is better to quote them and paste here so it will be asier to see. Not everyone visits other SB sites.

Thanks
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on February 07, 2017, 06:06:15 PM
OK. The reason I didn't do so is because all Ssnake said was "I'm cautiously optimistic." He didn't even quote the post he was responding to.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on February 12, 2017, 01:50:01 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=168177
And Ssnake delivers more info:
Quote from: Ssnake
The INITIAL scope of the new terrain engine is

  • to retain backwards compatibility with legacy maps and scenarios
  • to visualize/transfer into real geometry the "bumpiness" factor according to terrain theme settings
  • to allow patches of high resolution source data in an overall low res terrain database (provided that the user has access to those data in the first place); this is by and large a classroom version feature only by virtue of availability and map editor functionality
  • to allow modification of legacy maps to level and smooth roads
  • to provide better methods to create overpasses and highway on/off ramps

Anything beyond that is "extra". Some extra features might make it into that final version 4.0 update but at this point we're more concerned about compatibility issues than anything else. New stuff that doesn't work properly is worse than useless. As these changes go very deep into the code base we need to be extra careful to create less damage than we add useful new functionality. It is of course somewhat frustrating that things always take more time, but at the end of the day we rather accept an avalanche of "are we there yet" postings in the forum than an avalanche of messages that things don't work.

I can but ask for your patience.

Also, we may be posting some preparatory information about changes in the workflow when handling new map data, or when setting up network sessions. Some of the established routines won't work any longer (or at least won't work with true high resolution terrain data), like embedding map data in the scenario files.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on February 14, 2017, 10:59:51 PM
Good news from dejawolf: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=168250
Quote
initial runs with the new version has seen FPS increases from 60 to 100 fps in certain scenarios.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lusik on February 14, 2017, 11:50:32 PM
Good  news. I was expecting something quite contrary.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on February 15, 2017, 12:48:27 AM
Good news from dejawolf: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=168250
Quote
initial runs with the new version has seen FPS increases from 60 to 100 fps in certain scenarios.

Certain scenarios. Could still have a drop in certain maps. Near built up areas etc. This is encouraging though.

Thanks for posting Rinix.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on February 15, 2017, 03:15:05 PM
Talk about a communications failure at eSimGames: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=168270
Quote from: Volcano
That FPS information is total speculation at this point and should not be repeated.  It is not official, and some features were completely disabled in the tests.

Better to wait for the final version...
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=168272
Quote from: dejawolf
in a test with a version where fps was not capped to 60 fps, FPS was 100 is what i meant.
in the capped version, average FPS has increased.
so players should experience fewer low dips in FPS and a generaly stabler framerate.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: wilso845 on February 15, 2017, 03:25:07 PM
Its like reading quotes from a married couple 👍
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on February 15, 2017, 03:58:16 PM
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/cf/cf836587737761dbca146b8d2bbf0613befac16a98b1fca154d41d771b3db605.jpg)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on February 15, 2017, 06:09:33 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=168285
Quote from: Volcano
OK that post is better. The original post was too broad, so it it was removed because it is too early to know what the exact final results of the optimizations are. Also, these results have yet to be tested on a wide range of computer specifications.

The point here for everyone is that these observations were made from an experimental test version on one specific PC, with some features disabled, and everyone should not get their hopes up as to the final performance until we get closer to release date.

As long as everyone understands this then, yes, factual statement: FPS should improve, which is certainly a good thing, but by how much exactly we do not yet know. ;)
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=168287
Quote from: Grenny
I can just add that I was VERY VERY impressed by the performance improvements, and I hope they will work out that way, or at least close to it, in the final product.
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=168288
Quote from: Gibsonm
So much for Volcano's attempt at expectation management.
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=168289
Quote from: Grenny
Hey, I was beeing as unspecific as possible :-P
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=168291
Quote from: Gibson
Well "VERY VERY impressed by the performance improvements" to someone who doesn't know what your setup might suggest its absolutely fantastic (and perhaps back to the sort of numbers Deja initial quoted).

As with most Internet things, it will tend to be mis-interpreted or at least interpreted in the most optimistic way possible.

Tell people you are "VERY VERY impressed by the performance" with the performance of a family car and they'll think its a super car (or say that about say a Type 209 SSK and they'll thinks its a Los Angeles SSN).

Let alone whatever changes you guys may need to make between now and when it comes out the door which might reduce performance. :)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on February 28, 2017, 03:44:43 PM
An interesting note from Ssnake on map data priority: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/3762-map-request-thread/?page=13#comment-168722
Quote from: Ssnake
I don't think so. We as eSim Games aren't doing much in terms of map development. But of course if those who make maps are also involved in the beta test, that beta testing will naturally cut into their time budget.

Anyway, the problem is more one of data availability in the first place. For example, German topographical service authorities want to sell map data, and higher resolutions and contemporary data go for (much) higher prices. As long as we can get free map data from other places, that's where we're going. So, that's an economic barrier as far as the Kiel area is concerned.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on February 28, 2017, 06:00:40 PM
Purchasing map data can be very expensive.

How many people would even know if it was correct?

A higher resolution will be great as it could help infantry to hide instead of going underground.

Thanks for the update.

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 18, 2017, 10:49:00 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/7244-its-realits-bekibekibekistan/?page=2#comment-169336
I really wish Ssnake would be more clear about what he means by "later this year". ::)
Quote from: Ssnake
Once that the new terrain engine will make it your way - not next week, but later this year - there'll be suitable subdirectories in map-specific folders.

All future maps will receive their own folder, which should make handling equally convenient (rather than handling a file you'd handle a folder, but otherwise it's not terrifyingly different). One of the options is to have custom artwork included with the map, so you don't have to apply a mod that changes the terrain-specific artwork in every map.

Our implementation of this feature was a direct result of the initial work that had been poured into this project, so you can thank Cata for this (...and our programmers, of course). :)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on March 18, 2017, 11:22:09 PM
Quote from: Ssnake
Once that the new terrain engine will make it your way - not next week, but later this year

:oldman2

If they need time then thats ok...Better than lots of hotfixes  :banghead
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 18, 2017, 11:32:18 PM
Quote from: Ssnake
Once that the new terrain engine will make it your way - not next week, but later this year

:oldman2

If they need time then thats ok...Better than lots of hotfixes  :banghead
Yes, I agree. The issue here is that it's a sudden swerve without much clarity.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 19, 2017, 04:17:37 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/7244-its-realits-bekibekibekistan/?page=2#comment-169345
Looks like they're trying to split the maps away from the installer to get the installer size down.
Quote from: Ssnake
Maybe, but it's offset by the "height" and "terrain" folders going away, and all the individual files that they contain. Plus, you will be able to install them in a location other than C:\ProgramData. In fact, the maps will come with a separate installer which should help both in disk management, and when updating the software without touching the maps.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cougar11 on March 19, 2017, 04:46:01 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/7244-its-realits-bekibekibekistan/?page=2#comment-169345
Looks like they're trying to split the maps away from the installer to get the installer size down.
Quote from: Ssnake
Maybe, but it's offset by the "height" and "terrain" folders going away, and all the individual files that they contain. Plus, you will be able to install them in a location other than C:\ProgramData. In fact, the maps will come with a separate installer which should help both in disk management, and when updating the software without touching the maps.
If the maps will be seperated, then it will start looking like Arma, or other mod games. Can anyone say connection issues due to not downloading a map.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 19, 2017, 05:28:09 PM
If the maids will be seperated, then it will start looking like Arma, or other mod games. Can anyone say connection issues due to not downloading a map.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Separating maids. :P Anyway, Ssnake has already said that embedding maps in scenarios will no longer be possible, and that habits will have to be changed: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10355-sb-pro-pe-40-discussion-thread/?page=9#comment-150890
Quote from: Ssnake
Also, and that's the nasty part of it, chances are high that for larger multiplayer events if they aree based on a scenario with a custom map, these map files need to be put on a web server for download prior to the event as these large file sizes, particularly if they must be distributed to a larger number of clients, make it totally impractical to distribute them on the fly. Which means that clients coming unprepared to a network session will have to be rejected by the host, and may only be allowed to join the mission in progress later on after they collected the necessary files.

We haven't made the decision lightly. We don't like it at all. But we like the options that the new terrain engine offers in the long run so much better that we're willing to do it. So, there needs to be a mentality change. You just can't stumble into a network session at the last minute. The necessary files need to be downloaded and put into the right places before you even think about entering the Assembly Hall. We're sorry (yes, we truly are), but the onus of preparedness is on you. Maybe one day when everybody has fiber optics installed and a Gigabit upstream connection to the internet will it become practical again that the host will distribute the files to all clients (the functions are still there in SB Pro). It's just that until that day comes, low bandwidth connections will still dominate the interne tinfrastructure, and the sheer data size multiplied by the number of clients simply prevents this approach for all practical matters.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 22, 2017, 02:08:34 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/7244-its-realits-bekibekibekistan/?page=2#comment-169415
Looks like a new release is coming soon. 8)
Quote
We'll have to compromise on that one. For a while, the old map editor will have to do (with a few new features).

At a later point - much later than planned, I'm afraid to say - we'll replace the integrated editor with a standalone program, and to be honest, I'm skeptical that we'll still see it before version 5. BUT: The new terrain engine will come with adequate support, feature-wise, to take advantage of some new capability. The focus is on what you need to convert legacy maps, and to improve them.

All that, however, is something to discuss in June. Before that we'll have another update for you. I'm currently working on the Release Notes.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 24, 2017, 04:24:09 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/7244-its-realits-bekibekibekistan/?page=3#comment-169466
Looks like the new release does not have the new terrain engine, and will be performance improvements:
Quote from: Grenny
We'll have to wait for the final product. But esim are working on improved efficiency. My laptop was quiete happy...
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 24, 2017, 11:48:35 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/7244-its-realits-bekibekibekistan/?page=3#comment-169480
Quote from: Ssnake
3D performance will be better than what you currently have, actually. But loading times and RAM usage will increase a bit, there's no way around that.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lusik on March 25, 2017, 11:34:31 PM
Thanks for the updates Rinix.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on March 25, 2017, 11:42:30 PM
Quote from: Ssnake
3D performance will be better than what you currently have, actually. But loading times and RAM usage will increase a bit, there's no way around that.

This is common nowadays. Games want more and more HD space and RAM  :smashing-computer
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 27, 2017, 04:01:54 PM
Next version of Steel Beasts will be 4.017 or higher:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10539-sb-pro-pe-40-hardware-recommendations/?page=3#comment-169526
Quote from: Ssnake
A comparison between 4.010 and 4.017(+) would also be appreciated. :)

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10539-sb-pro-pe-40-hardware-recommendations/?page=3#comment-169537
Quote from: Ssnake
You can download it in a few days as the next PE update. :)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on March 27, 2017, 04:18:22 PM
Thanks Rinix  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 30, 2017, 12:53:52 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=2#comment-169623
Quote from: Ssnake
The current beta focuses on performance improvements. The New Terrain beta test will start after the release of the upcoming PE beta test, around or right after the Easter hoilidays.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on March 30, 2017, 01:55:23 AM
Good news

Thanks Rinix  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 01, 2017, 12:50:47 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11411-sb-pro-pe-40-hardware-discussion/?page=4#comment-169667
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11411-sb-pro-pe-40-hardware-discussion/?page=4#comment-169669
Looks like the next release will be in the first week of April.
Quote from: Ssnake
To answer your question: Yes, we are.

  • We announced even back in August '16 that we'd release an update later that would bring the new terrain engine. Back then we assumed that it would take us half a year. As it turns out, "one year" would have been the more accurate prediction, but these things are inherently difficult to estimate, so I'm rather unapologetic about that.
  • We announced with version 4.010 that we'd release an update in the first quarter 2017; looks like we'll be running a week late, but again, it's probably better to give you something that is reasonably well tested rather than blindly adhering to an arbitrary date.
  • As per my statements above, this one won't include the new terrain engine. Rather, we saw it as our mission to improve general performance over the 4.0 results, and while the final numbers aren't in yet, overall I think it's safe to say that you will notice cases where the frames will be up substantially; however, these improvements aren't across the board, but if they are mostly in situations where the frames are really bad in 4.010 and before it's probably better than having higher frames where they used to be good already. :)
Quote from: Ssnake
I can but point you to the release notes which I will publish in a few days. So many things were addressed, including shadow related ones, I really don't have all that ready in my memory.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on April 01, 2017, 03:42:47 AM
Good things come in increments. Good things come to those who wait. For example, for release 4.09/4.010 we had those nice sparks effects of explosions and depth of field (DOF) in thermal imagers feature which were worth waiting for. Other features that came in the last time were: wider span of control over infantry; towing of vehicles; command and line formations for infantry; engineer infantry; snipers;  vechicle suspension effects; and a ton of other stuff. [ See: http://www.steelbeasts.com/updates/SBProPE_4-009_RN.pdf (http://www.steelbeasts.com/updates/SBProPE_4-009_RN.pdf)]

The best surprise in gaming life is when you are so busy with work and real life and then suddenly you find out that the next major release of your favorite game is imminent. I love that moment when it's the eve of a next major release and I didn't even know it. It's like that feeling I got years ago at the computer game shop, scanning all those yummy game titles on display. Feeling like a kid in a candy store.

For me personally, I would prefer that eSimGames take its time to fine-tune and tweak the new engine. So that my under-powered laptop can still churn out some decent framerates, and not be overwhelmed by all the number crunching involved. Ah, that would be awesome. When the dynamic terrain engine is finally released, it will be time for a group hug because we waited so long and we were finally rewarded.
:grouphugg
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 11, 2017, 10:05:50 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11112-sb-pro-pe-4010-released/?page=3#comment-169997
Quote from: Ssnake
More news this Thursday.

That being said, whenever we give out a date, it is ALWAYS under the (occasionally unspoken) premise that our quality control team has the final say about the release. We try to meet self-imposed deadlines, but we refuse to become slaves to them, or to sacrifice our quality standards for an arbitrary date.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on April 11, 2017, 10:23:07 PM
Thanks Rinix
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cupcake on April 11, 2017, 11:17:59 PM
Please don't be a full installer...
Please don't be a full installer...
Please don't be a full installer...

...Unless it is delayed until the middle of May, then it's all good. :D
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Don_prince on April 11, 2017, 11:47:19 PM
Please don't be a full installer...
Please don't be a full installer...
Please don't be a full installer...

...Unless it is delayed until the middle of May, then it's all good. :D

Please dont be another $45 upgrade...
Please dont be another $45 upgrade...
Please dont be another $45 upgrade...

:)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on April 12, 2017, 12:33:39 AM
Please don't be a full installer...
Please don't be a full installer...
Please don't be a full installer...

 :laughing4  It might be



 :Thumbsup2  It won't be.

Please dont be another $45 upgrade...
Please dont be another $45 upgrade...
Please dont be another $45 upgrade...
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 15, 2017, 04:33:10 AM
The 4.018/9 release notes say that the next update (which most likely includes the new terrain engine) is scheduled for July.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 16, 2017, 12:08:28 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11460-efforts-on-terrain-representation/#comment-170210
Quote from: Ssnake
The engine will, in principle, be able to handle LIDAR scan data (as has been demonstrated by this YouTube video from last year. Whether it's always a good idea to use high resolution data is a different question. The ground resolution has been increased by a factor of 256, which also means a factor of 256 in the growth of height maps; if a current height map is 30 MBytes large we're talking about a single map occupying 7.6 gigabytes. This has implications about loading times, data storage/disk space, system RAM requirements, and the way how internet multiplayer sessions can be set up if some players don't yet have the map installed for a given scenario. Also, you need to ensure the validity of map data across all clients.

A better approach would be to use higher resolutions more selectively. You need high resolution only where there is high detail. So, that's one more area we're working on, to allow to mix source data of variable mesh width as a means to reduce the sheer mass of data to deal with. Oh, and on top of it, please retain the ability to edit a map on the fly to meet a scenario's specific requirements.

Of course we have ideas where we want to go. The initial implementation will be substantially less ambitious. Like I mentioned before, the initial scope of work is to replace the old terrain engine with one that is fully backwards compatible AND which has the growth potential for future improvements while retaining much of the ease of use that we're accustomed to when it comes to our map and mission editors.

In summary, the things that you mention are to a degree our long-term goals. The short-term goal of releasing the new engine later this year is more limited in scope to minimize the overall development risk. Secure the bridgehead first, then break out of it.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 25, 2017, 11:11:00 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11505-itec-2017-rotterdam/#comment-170753
Quote from: Ssnake
If any of you need an incentive: We'll have a very cool Marder simulator on the stand where you can hop into the gunner's place to shoot stuff. 20mm @ 900 rounds per minute, what's not to like?   8)

And there'll be some swag to grab - a new iteration of the world's best mousepad with a spoiler of things to come.

Oh, and a preview of the new terrain engine.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 15, 2017, 02:24:45 AM
(https://www.itec.co.uk/__media/libraries/exhibitor-press-releases/3972F6DA-5056-B74C-7DA8BB795DB4EACE-image.jpg)
https://www.itec.co.uk/exhibitors/esim-games/
Check the press releases for this:
Quote
eSim Games, LLC is proud to return to ITEC 2017 (International Training and Education Conference) in Rotterdam, the Netherlands, May 16-18. ITEC is a venue for the military sector and educational community.


eSim will be presenting their premier product, Steel Beasts Professional, with its unique new high resolution terrain engine and a refurbished legacy trainer, extending its operational lifetime by 20 years and expanding its functionality by integration with large scale tactical exercises as well as battlefield management systems. The technology is also suitable for vehicle-appended trainers.

http://www.esimgames.com/?p=2045
Quote
Final preparations are underway – eSim Games relocates to the Netherlands for a week.

We’re looking forward to meeting you there. Together with our partner Diehl Defence we’ll exhibit a Marder turret live – you’re invited to hop in, and have some old school gunnery fun with a 1000 RPM 20mm autocannon. As a lasting souvenir, we’ll have the world’s best mousepad ready, this year in its fifth iteration – giving a hint about future developments.

Oh, and we’ll have the prototype of the new terrain engine ready, just in case you were wondering. Fortunately we got the permission to use a LIDAR scan based sub-meter resolution terrain database for demonstration purposes. Visitors of the Åben Hede events – a popular annual display of Danish firepower – will immediately recognize the sand dunes of the Kallemærsk heath between Oksbøl and Blåvandshuk.

The only downside is a reduced responsiveness for customer support requests. Also, the web shop will be closed down for a few days. Please excuse the inconvenience.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on May 15, 2017, 03:00:54 AM
Thanks for keeping us updated Rinix. This is very helpful  :cheers
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on May 15, 2017, 11:23:15 AM
That dynamic terrain with higher resolution undulating slopes, ridges, trenches and valleys opens up lots of ambush possibilities.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lusik on May 15, 2017, 10:28:59 PM
Thanks for the update Rinix. I don't go to Steelbeasts.com too often so each one is appreciated.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 15, 2017, 10:34:58 PM
Thanks for the update Rinix. I don't go to Steelbeasts.com too often so each one is appreciated.
You're welcome, but this latest news isn't from there.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 16, 2017, 04:40:16 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/93-sb-on-mac-system/?page=2#comment-171606
Now Ssnake's saying that 8 GB RAM is enough for normal use of PE, with 16 GB RAM worth considering if you can afford it. Yet the system requirements on eSimGames' website still say 32 GB RAM recommended. :facepalm_smiley
Quote from: Ssnake
Outlook for the new terrain version: Lots of RAM is a good thing, although for PE users in normal cases 8GByte should suffice; if you can afford 16, consider them an option. An SSD will also be a great thing to have, and be beneficial for everything that you do with the machine, including pushing lots of map data around.

Well, what can I say. In high performance computing (whioch games are), bigger is better.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on May 16, 2017, 05:46:55 PM
The more the merrier.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 23, 2017, 09:06:15 PM
http://www.esimgames.com/?p=2058
Quote
The other highlight was the presentation of the new terrain engine with a LIDAR scan based terrain data base of sub-meter grid resolutionat virtually no performance loss over SB Pro PE 4.019. The scan was made of the highly rugged sand dunes of the Kallemærsk shooting range near the Danish Combat School in Oksbøl, southern Jutland. The stunning quality of the terrain representation aside, a change towards high resolution terrain also seems to have a profound effect on simulation outcomes – in particular the shift of impact locations from a near uniform distribution over the whole vehicle silhouette which is still the norm in 10m grid DTED3 databases to almost exclusively in the (upper) turret area, as long as crews manage to utilize the terrain for masking (more on that topic in a later post).

Of course: Seeking hull-down positions has been standard fare in Steel Beasts since before version 1.0. But high-resolution terrain databases offer so many more opportunities to dash into cover where in traditional databases suitable firing positions are often confined to major ridgelines. Shifting the impact locations away from the hull – which seems to reflect real life battle results since WW2 – has in turn an effect on the overall attrition rates of the whole vehicle fleet in operations.
The real work is only starting now, of course – adapting the behavior of computer-controlled units to both recognize smaller firing positions and to avoid steep discontinuities in the terrain, particularly on mountain roads, and to deal with the effects of deformable terrain at runtime. Next year’s show report promises to be interesting.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 23, 2017, 09:11:10 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11549-bm-15-pele-issue/#comment-171889
Quote from: Ssnake
Well, I wouldn't want to create the impression that it'll be part of an update of the PE this year. The new terrain engine with a few related features will be the final update for version 4.0. Anything beyond that will be wrapped into a new major release, maybe end of 2018.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 24, 2017, 06:09:37 AM
http://www.esimgames.com/?p=2070
And also:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlwpZrHeBU8
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on May 24, 2017, 12:07:45 PM
The higer resolution terrain adds a lot to SB  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lumituisku on May 24, 2017, 02:04:05 PM
Yeah albeit I kind of feel that this is almost like some early funding program than actual reality.

Like​ it will take a long time before we will see it.


I truly hope they will improve unit behavior to match new terrain. That leopard at the end seemed to bee way too exposed in case it was AI.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 24, 2017, 04:23:44 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11505-itec-2017-rotterdam/?page=2#comment-171908
Quote from: Ssnake
Yes... we also have a homepage. ;)

The video isn't listed on YouTube because I don't want to create the impression that the terrain you see in it is what you'll get with the new engine. We received the terrain data for experimentation purposes. We may show it, we just can't include it in the Steel Beasts distribution. One day LIDAR scan data will be freely available I suppose. Until then we're stuck with what we currently have.

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11505-itec-2017-rotterdam/?page=3#comment-171912
Quote from: Ssnake
Again: We can't include that terrain in SB Pro PE.

The new terrain engine will make old terrain data look a bit better than the current one, but we have no permission to use (nor the money to buy) high-res LIDAR scans.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on May 24, 2017, 05:01:00 PM
Can't wait for 2018.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 24, 2017, 05:38:35 PM
Can't wait for 2018.
The new terrain engine is still on schedule for July 2017 (as per the 4.019 release notes), because Ssnake hasn't said anything about delays.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 30, 2017, 05:14:40 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=3#comment-172157
Quote from: Ssnake
Now, LIDAR data also use huge amounts of disk space and don't compress well. So, our plan is to convert all the stock maps in Steel Beasts for you (and maybe add one or two new maps), and to offer these data as a separate installer. Which also means that - maybe not right away, that is undecided yet - in the future you may install the map files anywhere, not just in C:\ProgramData, which is a concern for those with a smaller SSD for the C: drive. Because the data will be larger than what you're used to, our plan is to put all the converted maps on a DVD set that you can order from our web shop, so you don't have to download all these rather large files. It also means that future versions of SB Pro will have much smaller installers to download, as we will separate the maps from the rest of the program forever; they may therefore also follow a separate update cycle.

My intent is to offer the DVD set as a bundle with the next iteration of the printed manual. It's about time that we have one produced. In order to get a high quality label printed on the DVDs we need to order a certain minimum quantity; chances are that we may deviate from our habits and make these bundles available for preorder. This is probably still a few weeks away, though.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on May 30, 2017, 05:48:57 AM
Someone should write an optimizing routine to compress the LIDAR terrain data to a higher compression level.

Who knows? technology changes so much. Look at how MP3 revolutionised the audio data world by compressing music files and yet allowing clear quality. And yet now they say that "MP3 is dead!". Most state-of-the-art media services such as streaming or TV and radio broadcasting use modern ISO-MPEG codecs such as the AAC family or in the future MPEG-H.

So maybe some computer scientist/university student intern should seriously look into this "Optimise LIDAR" project. Otherwise, we will have to buy a DVD for each terrain that we want to use, from the eSimgames' 'DVD set'. Just guessing. I hope I am wrong about the multiple DVDs.

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on May 30, 2017, 12:32:55 PM

So maybe some computer scientist/university student intern should seriously look into this "Optimise LIDAR" project. Otherwise, we will have to buy a DVD for each terrain that we want to use, from the eSimgames' 'DVD set'. Just guessing. I hope I am wrong about the multiple DVDs.

They did not say that a download would not be available. Also a USB stick would be better for something like this. Many people do not have a DVD drive on their pc any more.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 30, 2017, 05:01:14 PM
Someone should write an optimizing routine to compress the LIDAR terrain data to a higher compression level.

Who knows? technology changes so much. Look at how MP3 revolutionised the audio data world by compressing music files and yet allowing clear quality. And yet now they say that "MP3 is dead!". Most state-of-the-art media services such as streaming or TV and radio broadcasting use modern ISO-MPEG codecs such as the AAC family or in the future MPEG-H.

So maybe some computer scientist/university student intern should seriously look into this "Optimise LIDAR" project. Otherwise, we will have to buy a DVD for each terrain that we want to use, from the eSimgames' 'DVD set'. Just guessing. I hope I am wrong about the multiple DVDs.
Ssnake didn't say we would need 1 DVD for each terrain map. About MP3: while the owner of the MP3 patents let all of its patents expire, and it's being superseded, it's still not dead.

As for LIDAR data compression, it's already been done:
http://www.laszip.org/
https://www.lizardtech.com/lidar-compressor/overview

They did not say that a download would not be available. Also a USB stick would be better for something like this. Many people do not have a DVD drive on their pc any more.
I agree. 32 GB (http://) and 64 GB (https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&IsNodeId=1&N=100007960%204814%20600000447) USB sticks aren't that expensive, though they are still more expensive per GB than DVDs ordered in bulk. And they're quicker. A DVD drive at its usual maximum of 16x will only hit 22.16 MB/s, compared to USB 2.0's 35 MB/s maximum. Let alone USB 3.0.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 03, 2017, 07:25:24 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11591-is-it-possible-to-make-curved-roads-and-highways/#comment-172344
Quote from: Ssnake
The next update with the new terrain engine will allow to apply spline smoothing to roads, and to evelate and to flatten them. This will give you a number of new options to build your roads.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on June 03, 2017, 08:16:08 PM
That is good news  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 18, 2017, 03:10:34 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=3#comment-173018
Quote from: Ssnake
Over time there will be.

The main purpose of the new terrain engine is to replace the existing technology with a new one that

  • does what the old did, for backwards compatibility reasons, and
  • provides the foundation for new capabilities - which will be added over time

So, the amount of changes won't be dramatic, but there will be a few things - for example, the ability to level roads, which is a big improvement in moutaineous terrain, or the ability to build ramps (which lets you create overpasses). Procedural embellishment can however only do so much. Where the original data doesn't exist there is no magic wand to generate it. A map built from 30m grid data - still the standard for most maps in Steel Beasts - simply cannot provide the richness of small depressions and other places to hide a tank which are available in abundancy in most places (the Utah salt flats being a well-known exception).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on June 20, 2017, 03:14:16 PM
Your updates are appreciated Rinix  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lumituisku on June 20, 2017, 04:16:09 PM
Your updates are appreciated Rinix  :thumbsup

I agree 100%.

Without Rinix effort, I wouldn't know at all how the progress is going.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 20, 2017, 04:40:31 PM
Your updates are appreciated Rinix  :thumbsup
Your updates are appreciated Rinix  :thumbsup

I agree 100%.

Without Rinix effort, I wouldn't know at all how the progress is going.
Thanks guys. :)

One thing Ssnake said in the previous quote is bothering me:
Quote from: Ssnake
A map built from 30m grid data - still the standard for most maps in Steel Beasts - simply cannot provide the richness of small depressions and other places to hide a tank which are available in abundancy in most places (the Utah salt flats being a well-known exception).
SB's current maximum terrain resolution is 12.5 meters. So most maps in SB will not benefit from the new terrain engine – unless the maps themselves become available in higher resolutions
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lumituisku on June 21, 2017, 02:08:27 AM
Yeah... So basically after getting new engine we have to wait for... Either map creators or armies to have interest that we will get new maps.  :(
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on June 21, 2017, 03:19:11 PM
At least things are moving forward  :)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 08, 2017, 04:25:16 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/4546-steel-beasts-content-wish-list/?page=215#comment-173821
Quote from: Ssnake
So, it is a really big task that requires a dedicated development. That in turn requires that we give it a suitably high development priority, which I just don't see possible at the moment. We are committed to working first on the high resolution terrain engine, next on dynamic terrain and the countless implications that it has for units navigating in it. It has implications for data handling, hardware requirements (particularly data storage I/O - if you're planning to buy a new computer, think of large enough SSDs), and some of these changes have implications for the user interface. Only after all that has been dealt with will we have the capacity to even think of something else.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on July 08, 2017, 09:08:57 PM
Thank Rinix  :cheers
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 25, 2017, 05:36:29 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=3#comment-174233
I get that eSim Games shouldn't rush the upcoming release. But after giving a preorder time frame of "probably still a few weeks away, though" (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?do=findComment&comment=172157) all the way back in May, and telling us that the new terrain engine will be coming in July (https://www.esimgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/SBProPE_4-018_RN.pdf), you'd think Ssnake could actually tell us if they're behind schedule, rather than getting defensive. It's got me worried that there's something seriously wrong with the upcoming release.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on July 25, 2017, 05:41:52 PM

I get that eSim Games shouldn't rush the upcoming release. But after giving a preorder time frame of

This can cause problems. When you give people a date or time frame and miss it then their is at least disappointment, at the most anger.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 28, 2017, 09:11:44 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11688-1973-war-idf-damaged-tank-survey/#comment-174330
Quote from: Ssnake
Well, obviously a low resolution terrain database that still looks natural cannot offer "micro cover" - small but sharp variations in the terrain that are sufficient to mask a combat vehicle at least partially, or in full. Real life is full of these micro cover elements; it starts with walls and fences in large numbers in urban areas, there's irrigation and drainage ditches, and most prominently, most major roads will have a significant lengths in the form of ramps to smoothen elevations, or when leading up to overpasses - or they cut into slopes when running parallel to mountain slopes.

All these elements require a higher resolution than a 30m grid, which is still the standard for most of the maps in SB Pro PE, even if the Steel Beasts mesh width offers an almost six times higher resolution (12.5m grid). The lack of micro cover will therefore tend to expose vehicles to each other at longer ranges, and for longer durations. This in turn leads to longer engagement ranges than is often observed in real-life training, and the impact locations are almost evenly distributed between hull and turret. You can easily observe that when groing through your own saved AAR files, or, more coarsely but with a probably much broader base of samples, check out the HTML formatted tabulated mission reports that Steel Beasts generates for every. single. scenario that you have every played since first installation. You can open these tables with pretty much any contemporary spreadsheet program. There, above the event list, you can see both the distance for every shot taken, and a coarse description of the hit location. If you would do a quantitative statistical analysis you could see what the average engagement range in all your scenarios was (you could even filter it by weapon system/ammunition type to sort 120mm gun rounds from TOW missiles and 25mm autocannon fire), and you will probably find a distribution of 60% turret hits to 40% hull impacts.

My prediction for future games with the high resolution terrain engine, where the scenario played is based on a high resolution terrain (like LIDAR scan), the balance will shift from 60:40 to 95:5, at least as far as human vs human engagements are concerned. This is at least what the first tests suggested that were reported during the Steel Beasts Conference this year, and it seems to have been confirmed in other, independent tests since then. I think it's safe to say that the introduction of high res terrain databases will have a profound impact on the way how Steel Beasts will be played, and experienced.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on July 29, 2017, 02:40:20 AM
What's the 'Steel Beasts Conference'?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on July 29, 2017, 03:00:40 AM
As usual, Thx Rinix  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 29, 2017, 03:42:45 AM
What's the 'Steel Beasts Conference'?
It's a conference that apparently is run by eSim Games, Terranis Systems has mentioned it: http://www.terranis.se/en/news-5609627

As usual, Thx Rinix  :thumbsup
You're welcome. :howdy
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 05, 2017, 11:38:09 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/3762-map-request-thread/?page=14#comment-174489
Quote from: DarkAngel
I'm not going to be making anymore community request maps until the New Terrain engine is closer to release. Partly because I don't have the time at the moment. The other factor is that there is little point making maps for 4.x, with the NTE they will all need converting to new formats. I have enough of those to do without making more work for myself.
Dark's comment suggests that the new terrain engine might be coming sometime soon.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on August 07, 2017, 11:50:07 AM
It's good that he doesn't keep us in the dark.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on August 07, 2017, 12:48:21 PM
Big thanks to Rinix for keeping us updated  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 11, 2017, 11:13:58 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=3#comment-174597
Finally, some meaningful communication:
Quote from: Ssnake
We identified one last issue. As the map sizes grow bigger - something that cannot be helped with higher resolution - this has a number of user interface implications. Aside from a number of network game setup/coordination issues we basically concluded that you also need an option to put your maps on a different disk drive than the one mandated by Microsoft's multiuser guidelines (which essentially offers no alternative to "C:\ProgramData").

So, this is the last feature to implement, a non-command line parameter option to set a different file path for the map directory, so the maps won't clog your small SSD C: drive (unless you're a filthy power user and have a really big SSD for C:\ ...). The command line parameter already exists, so our internal version of SB Pro can already handle that. What's needed is a proper file browser that lets you pick a non-standard directory. That's being worked on. Also, we're converting all the official legacy maps, one by one so you won't have to do that. Aside from the sheer CPU time to convert each map (a few hours) we also try to determine which version of a map actually works best as the base map, and we try to fix all the (missing, or wrong) map meta data (e.g. if a map isn't properly georeferenced the virtual world would sometimes show a night sky when your chosen time of day is 10 am., or the time zone settings would be all wrong; finally it also has an effect on the star patterns on the night sky). So we can't simply batch convert all maps, which turned out to be one factor (among others) why we aren't ready for a release already. And without the map conversion process being complete we don't know the size of the (separate) map installer, which will determine how many DVDs we need for it, which has a direct consequence on the production plans for the new installation disk set.

Dependencies, dependencies...

We covered about 95% in our project plan, but some things you only discover once that you're running the first practical tests.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on August 12, 2017, 12:56:19 AM
Most people are used to games being 20,40, 70+ GB. Software just seems to get bigger.

Thx for the post Rinix  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 12, 2017, 04:23:36 AM
Most people are used to games being 20,40, 70+ GB. Software just seems to get bigger.

Thx for the post Rinix  :thumbsup
You're welcome. :howdy The rise in size for Steel Beasts is because of the maps. It reminds me of Titanfall, where 35 GB of the 48 GB it takes up are uncompressed audio (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-03-11-why-the-pc-version-of-titanfall-is-a-48gb-install).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 21, 2017, 06:40:40 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=4#comment-174812
Quote from: Ssnake
The download option is likely, but undecided yet. It really depends on how large the sum of all converted maps will become. At this point I'm hard pressed to make a final statement. In any case the price of a separate map installer on a DVD set will be low, under $20.-, which would typically fly under the radar of customs where they often have a value threshold for an import (in Germany it's somewhere around 40 EUR).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on August 21, 2017, 06:56:17 PM
Quote from: Ssnake
The download option is likely, but undecided yet. It really depends on how large the sum of all converted maps will become. At this point I'm hard pressed to make a final statement. In any case the price of a separate map installer on a DVD set will be low, under $20.

What? They do know that most people have a decent download don't they? I do not like this idea. Also consider most of the time esim release an update etc, they need to hotfix it.

Oh and being $20 ....So much for the "already paid for update"  :thumbdown

Not everyone wants or needs a physical copy.

NOT GOOD  :Wag finger
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 21, 2017, 07:32:09 PM
Quote from: Ssnake
The download option is likely, but undecided yet. It really depends on how large the sum of all converted maps will become. At this point I'm hard pressed to make a final statement. In any case the price of a separate map installer on a DVD set will be low, under $20.

What? They do know that most people have a decent download don't they? I do not like this idea. Also consider most of the time esim release an update etc, they need to hotfix it.

Oh and being $20 ....So much for the "already paid for update"  :thumbdown

Not everyone wants or needs a physical copy.

NOT GOOD  :Wag finger

Ssnake is already getting pushback:
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=4#comment-174813
Quote from: Stavka
I understand and know that exist associated costs to have a large amount of files in a server to be available to be download like bandwidth limits, electricity and maintenance costs, etc.

Here because our "lovely" laws, we not have a minimum and always spend months on custom services. For a 20€ order I need to pay around +60€ (totaling over than 80) for handling+shipment+vat+fees+customs, so as you can understand is very unfair and frustrating paying like almost 4x more to fill the belly of burocrats.

So if it is a pain to have the free download, I think a fee of 15€ its a very fair price for a very large amount of download access and I don't mind to pay that 15€ fee to have access to that data for download way and I fully understand. But Please, don't do dvd only!

Thank You!!!

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=4#comment-174814
Quote from: Stavka
When I say 15€ its a majority price and ofc depends of the size of that maps. If you see here: https://aws.amazon.com/s3/pricing/ 15€ per user can pay easily download and storage of a large amount of GB's, also that prices are only a reference, exist cheaper services.
;)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lusik on August 21, 2017, 07:40:44 PM
Are we back in 2007?  ??? DVD may be an option but most people can download 40+ GB easily.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on August 21, 2017, 07:42:28 PM
We were told that the "upgrade" to 4.019 included the cost of the terrain update, which was delayed. I have told quite a few people this also. It seems that things have changed.

If someone wants a hard copy then extra costs are understandable. This makes the price more of an issue for the majority.

Not good  :Wag finger
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cougar11 on August 21, 2017, 09:37:38 PM
We were told that the "upgrade" to 4.019 included the cost of the terrain update, which was delayed. I have told quite a few people this also. It seems that things have changed.

If someone wants a hard copy then extra costs are understandable. This makes the price more of an issue for the majority.

Not good  :Wag finger
This has made me think twice about keeping my copy. Love on the game with friends, but not sure I'm willing to put up with esims crap.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 21, 2017, 10:21:39 PM
We were told that the "upgrade" to 4.019 included the cost of the terrain update, which was delayed. I have told quite a few people this also. It seems that things have changed.

If someone wants a hard copy then extra costs are understandable. This makes the price more of an issue for the majority.

Not good  :Wag finger
To be clear, 4.019 was a free patch. The new terrain engine was supposed to be free too. But so far, only the $20 DVD option is certain to come out.


Meanwhile, the backlash continues:
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=4#comment-174817
Quote from: Vikingo
I hope a download version will be available if not it will be a no go for me. My country now have new customs laws and then after all the extra $$$ and extreme paper work the customs/mail office steals lot of stuff so I hope for a pay download version. If not bye-bye new maps for me :|

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=4#comment-174819
Quote from: stavka
ohhhh yes, I even forgot that thing, the stolen side. Its true, in my physic orders 2x I was stolen from them and need to re-order again. And many others situations I received damaged things because their dirty and no care hands searching the interior to try to find if exist there illegal things (or something that is nice to steal).

The traditional physical distribution is dead since long time in many digital entertainment sectors, see the modern consoles, steam, ..... for example x-plane11 is around 60GB to download and no issues to do it.
So Ssnake, please, in modern times of fast internet, take all this into consideration and gave us an option for also download and with a tiny paid fee.

Quote from: Vikingo
yes, same situation here! :/ Crossing fingers x download version. And of course I keep my dongle between cottons.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on August 21, 2017, 10:49:25 PM
The last upgrade we paid for was $40. We were told the terrain would come later but we would not have to pay as the paid update included the terrain.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on August 21, 2017, 10:50:55 PM
Point is I am sure we have paid for the terrain.  :confused
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 21, 2017, 11:08:53 PM
The last upgrade we paid for was $40. We were told the terrain would come later but we would not have to pay as the paid update included the terrain.
Point is I am sure we have paid for the terrain.  :confused
That last upgrade we paid for was 4.000. Everything after that has been free patches. But we have certainly already paid for the terrain.

And Lusik does have a point about DVDs being outdated. There are more cases being released these days with no optical drive bays than there were in the past. Digital distribution has become so pervasive that some gamers are actually scared of physical media (http://techreport.com/news/26624/time-to-import-those-old-games-to-digital-services). Considering that all cases these days have USB ports, you'd think they'd go primarily digital distribution for the map installer, and sell a USB stick for those that want it.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cupcake on August 21, 2017, 11:44:16 PM
Yeah I think they'd be crazy not to offer it for download. As was mentioned in the thread, Amazon S3 is pretty cheap.  I mean, 2.3 cents per GB per month to store the data, and 9 cents per GB for transfers from S3 out to the Internet.

Also, I do not have DVD drive, so it would have to be either USB drive (better option than DVD in my opinion) or download for me (much preferred for most, I'd think).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on August 21, 2017, 11:58:54 PM

Also, I do not have DVD drive,

Most laptops don't have a DVD drive in-built these days. Many people don't have them on desktops either. A USB drive option would increase the price even more.

I have many games over 20GB. No issue downloading or updating them. I know some people have download limits forced on them and that is where the OPTION of a physical disk could come in.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cougar11 on August 22, 2017, 12:09:13 AM

Also, I do not have DVD drive,

Most laptops don't have a DVD drive in-built these days. Many people don't have them on desktops either. A USB drive option would increase the price even more.

I have many games over 20GB. No issue downloading or updating them. I know some people have download limits forced on them and that is where the OPTION of a physical disk could come in.
World of tanks and world of Warships have no problem sending out 100-600gb updates, and they are free.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 22, 2017, 12:17:00 AM
World of tanks and world of Warships have no problem sending out 100-600gb updates, and they are free.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
I think you meant to say 100–600 MB.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on August 22, 2017, 12:35:16 AM
I just updated a game on Steam with a 6GB update.

I have a flight simulation install of 82GB and this is very small. Some scenery packages are many GB's. X-Plane 11 is a 65GB install and yet it is available by download or physical disks.

Games like grand theft auto V are over 60GB. These are all available to download.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cougar11 on August 22, 2017, 12:59:53 AM
World of tanks and world of Warships have no problem sending out 100-600gb updates, and they are free.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
I think you meant to say 100–600 MB.
Most updated are 100-600mb, but have seen over 1gb, while the main game fully downloaded is 30gb, and it's free.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 23, 2017, 12:11:27 AM
Ssnake has issued a clarification: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=4#comment-174851
Quote from: Ssnake
The coming update for 4.019 (new terrain engine) will be free.
It was always intended to be part of the initial 4.0 delivery, but we had to pull it and go back to the drawing board as our initial UI concept for handling the (much larger) map data turned out to be impractical.

What's being discussed right now is how we're making the map data themselves available. This depends a bit on how much there will be, in the end. If the amount of data are too large for making a download impractical - mind you, I don't expect this to happen - we may be forced to offer it as a DVD set, and producing and shipping those DVDs costs money. You COULD convert all the legacy maps by your own for free. But it would take a few days of computing time (like, all CPU cores at full blast for an entire weekend, plus possibly running out of disk space). So, that's not really what we recommend either. So, depending on the practicality a DVD set at the cost of material, shipping & handling (and nothing else) might turn out to be the solution. HOWEVER, I have to repeat that, I expect us to offer the map installer as a separate download, for free.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cougar11 on August 23, 2017, 12:27:13 AM
Ssnake has issued a clarification: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=4#comment-174851
Quote from: Ssnake
The coming update for 4.019 (new terrain engine) will be free.
It was always intended to be part of the initial 4.0 delivery, but we had to pull it and go back to the drawing board as our initial UI concept for handling the (much larger) map data turned out to be impractical.

What's being discussed right now is how we're making the map data themselves available. This depends a bit on how much there will be, in the end. If the amount of data are too large for making a download impractical - mind you, I don't expect this to happen - we may be forced to offer it as a DVD set, and producing and shipping those DVDs costs money. You COULD convert all the legacy maps by your own for free. But it would take a few days of computing time (like, all CPU cores at full blast for an entire weekend, plus possibly running out of disk space). So, that's not really what we recommend either. So, depending on the practicality a DVD set at the cost of material, shipping & handling (and nothing else) might turn out to be the solution. HOWEVER, I have to repeat that, I expect us to offer the map installer as a separate download, for free.
Much better explanation.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on August 23, 2017, 01:08:55 AM
What about the people who purchased the 4.0 based on NO extra costs?

Here in the UK the postage, Customs and tax are significant. So people in the UK and similar situations will looses out.

While I understand the issue. I still cannot understand why the maps cannot be delivered via download. What about a torrent? Other software companies can do it. Why can't esims? Can someone please explain?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 23, 2017, 01:44:20 AM
What about the people who purchased the 4.0 based on NO extra costs?

Here in the UK the postage, Customs and tax are significant. So people in the UK and similar situations will looses out.

While I understand the issue. I still cannot understand why the maps cannot be delivered via download. What about a torrent? Other software companies can do it. Why can't esims? Can someone please explain?
Read Ssnake's clarification again. He's saying that there will be a free download of the map installer, with the physical copy of the map installer being the one that isn't free.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on August 23, 2017, 02:03:34 AM
Quote from: Ssnake
The coming update for 4.019 (new terrain engine) will be free.
 This depends a bit on how much there will be, in the end. If the amount of data are too large for making a download impractical - mind you, I don't expect this to happen - we may be forced to offer it as a DVD set, and producing and shipping those DVDs costs money. You COULD convert all the legacy maps by your own for free. But it would take a few days of computing time (like, all CPU cores at full blast for an entire weekend, plus possibly running out of disk space). So, that's not really what we recommend either. So, depending on the practicality a DVD set at the cost of material, shipping & handling (and nothing else) might turn out to be the solution. HOWEVER, I have to repeat that, I expect us to offer the map installer as a separate download, for free.



The contradictions cause the confusion.   :confused
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 26, 2017, 04:28:48 PM
The contradictions cause the confusion.   :confused
Point taken. Anyway, a reminder of what eSim is going to do to the stock maps: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=5#comment-174931
Quote from: Ssnake
The conversion of maps that I'm talking about doesn't involve the inclusion of LIDAR scans. The latter would really inflate map sizes. But even then the old HGT format is obsolete inasmuch as it doesn't allow for a number of features that the new engine is intended to support, even if said features may not be available in this first iteration. Therefore we have not much of a choice - the old HGT files need to get converted into the new format - something that every long-term customer of SB Pro PE could, in principle, do for himself. However, we at least want to take care of the conversion work for at least all the scenarios that are part of the official SB Pro PE installation. So, that's what the current discussion is about, at least as far as eSim's official position is concerned.

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=5#comment-174935
Quote from: Ssnake
Originally I thought that batch conversion was the way to go. We might still do that. For the PE release however it turned out to be the wrong path to take. There are too many almost identical maps. It turned out that we really have to go through the maps by hand, figuring out which map should be a base map, and fixing the maps' meta data in the process. I absolutely sympathize with the desire to have a magical converter where you just need to throw CPU time at the problem to make it go away. Be aware however that this is a very costly method, as far as disk space is concerned.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 03, 2017, 03:19:34 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=5#comment-175079
Quote from: Ssnake
Look, the actual amount of additional disk space compared to the current installation will not be THAT much bigger. Look at the current folder for your maps (C:\ProgramData\eSim Games\Steel Beasts\maps), and multiply by a factor of about ten. That's a realistic upper limit, and probably the actual size growth will be smaller, about factor four, due to a number of countermeasures. So, we're definitely not talking about terabytes here, that would be entirely unworkable. But the installation size of SB Pro PE might grow from currently 4...5 GByte to maybe 20...25 GByte, potentially more, depending on how many extra maps you have and if you decide to convert them all.

Now, a single 50x50km² map that consists of high resolution LIDAR scans would actually be several hundred gigabytes in size (uncompressed, might shrink to just under a hundred once that you're done editing it). But we're not shipping such a map, so we don't have to discuss it here.

So, in that respect SB Pro isn't more demanding in disk space than other contemporary games like Skyrim, Fallout 4, or similar. It's just a significant step up from the established standards since version 2.4 or 2.5, where the installation was maybe 2.5 GBytes, and today's 4...5 GBytes for version 4.0. HOWEVER, the file size growth forced us to reconsider certain convenience features in current multiplayer games. We can no longer embed height data in scenario files (the good news: scenarios shrink in size, substantially). It is no longer practical for the host so send map data to all connected clients. So in multiplayer games the participants need to come prepared, or they can't participate; they must download the map files separately before the game start, or do it while everybody else starts playing later join a session in progress. Maps must be "published" (=locked down against further editing) in order for the data compression to work, and you probably want to work with "delta maps" that only track the changes from a "base map" when tinkering with maps. Delta maps are much smaller, but again, if you use them, the base map must be present. And since we have these different map types (base/delta) and map states (published/unpublished) and a scenario could be based on any combination of these, we were forced to add a number of precautions and safety railings in the user interface to ensure data integrity in a network session. These all have (we hope minimal) impact on the user interface and some established practices.

I hope to create a number of tutorial videos in advance, explaining the details there.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on September 03, 2017, 05:35:12 PM
Mission download size was never a problem.

20-25GB is fine for me. It is a growing trend that many games are increasing their HD footprint with each new release/update.

Thanks for posting Rinix  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 03, 2017, 05:38:58 PM
You're welcome. :howdy And http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=5#comment-175092
Quote from: Ssnake
As far as map distribution is concerned, all you have to worry about is one big folder per map package that contains everything. All that the clients need to do is to download and to unpack it into the map directory (which will be user customizable). Once that the map is in place you can participate.

Yes, it's a deviation from previously established routines. You may consider the bandwidth considerations low on your priority list. We came to a different conclusion, and because of our different conclusions, most of the other UI changes cascaded from that. The SB Pro user interface hasn't changed much over the past ten years. Occasionally it must be possible however to change things lest we become entirely stuck in development directions that we can take. We don't only have to deal with SB Pro PE maps that are exclusively based on converted low resolution legacy terrain, we must also have a user interface that can deal with said LIDAR maps of several hundred gigabytes in size, each. This inflation of file sizes requires an adaptation of file handling, and with it, changes to the user interface.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on September 03, 2017, 05:45:20 PM
I think esim games need to realise that people are generally ok with larger downloads. If someone can't download that amount of data then they can have the option to purchase a physical disk.

Hundreds of thousands of people use flight simulators, FSX/P3D/Xplane. 25GB is acceptable for them.

If esims want to move forward then they need to utilise new tech, etc. If not they will be stuck in the past. Look at when they moved away from XP/32 bit. That was a good move.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 03, 2017, 06:38:01 PM
I think esim games need to realise that people are generally ok with larger downloads. If someone can't download that amount of data then they can have the option to purchase a physical disk.

Hundreds of thousands of people use flight simulators, FSX/P3D/Xplane. 25GB is acceptable for them.

If esims want to move forward then they need to utilise new tech, etc. If not they will be stuck in the past. Look at when they moved away from XP/32 bit. That was a good move.
I think they are moving towards accepting larger install sizes, based on what Ssnake has said. But what eSim Games needs to do is to finally change the code from pure C or C++ to C or C++ modules linked by a fast scripting language, like JIT-compiled Lua (http://luajit.org/luajit.html).

As it is, they're trying to maintain a project with about 600,000 lines of code at last check (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11657-patching-original-sb-pro-pe/#comment-173402) with a mere 6 lead and regular programmers. Using mostly C or C++ has been acknowledged to make it difficult to maintain the code; in dejawolf's words, "the steel beasts rendering code is nearly 10 years old now, and was written mostly in C, which means a lot of interdependencies and confusing code. it's a bit like looking at a bowl of spaghetti and attempting to discern every single strand of spaghetti in their entire length, where every single spaghetti need to lie exactly like it did before." (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/7149-v-30-performance-discussion/?page=5#comment-103673)

dejawolf has also said that "Steel beasts is all programmed in C++. modern game engines seems to prefer a C++/script approach, where the components that requires to be run at a high speed are done in C++, while a high-level language like Python/Javascript/Lua is used as "glue". this helps speed up development and makes code more maintainable, while at the same time maintain speeds close to pure C++ code." (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/4916-what-programming-language-is-used-for-sb/#comment-77880)

Add to this that eSim Games is known to maintain multiple versions of Steel Beasts Pro (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10007-2016-payware-upgrade/?page=3#comment-146655), and you've got them currently being seriously weighed down by code maintenance.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 04, 2017, 12:11:30 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=5#comment-175109
Quote from: Ssnake
Well, asking me questions isn't going to delay the release. That's why I'm here, so the actual developers are being left alone to do their work. The trouble is of course that we're running late, once again, and it's beginning to collide with other development contracts. That some of them have been delayed for external reasons, that some customers have a serious bottleneck in their contracting departments but still need to spend their budget on deliveries before the end of the year, well, it doesn't exactly help the situation.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 18, 2017, 04:41:38 PM
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4380055/re-any-development-on-the-t-80-or-t-90#Post4380055
Quote from: Ssnake
At the moment our absolute focus is on the high resolution terrain, and related bugfixing.
The current version merges a number of development branches, one of which involves infantry code "refactoring" (writing new with an attempt at simplification for better maintainability). Refactoring, while absolutely necessary to retain sanity, always has a chance to introduce new bugs (and apparently it did, so they need to get worked out).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on September 18, 2017, 04:48:54 PM
Quote from: Ssnake
At the moment our absolute focus is on the high resolution terrain, and related bugfixing.
The current version merges a number of development branches, one of which involves infantry code "refactoring" (writing new with an attempt at simplification for better maintainability).

Maybe the infantry will work better one day  :smileyyea
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 04, 2017, 05:02:25 PM
Here's a video of Steel Beasts with high resolution terrain, courtesy of WarUlf:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RS7mgxnxIg
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cougar11 on October 04, 2017, 05:11:47 PM
Here's a video of Steel Beasts with high resolution terrain, courtesy of WarUlf:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RS7mgxnxIg
Me likey

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on October 04, 2017, 05:17:56 PM
Here's a video of Steel Beasts with high resolution terrain, courtesy of WarUlf:


Thanks Rinix  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 05, 2017, 04:45:25 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=6#comment-175722
Quote from: Ssnake
A mere patch without the new terrain has been discussed as a "plan B", but my intent is to stick with plan A and release both bug fixes and new terrain in one final package.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on October 05, 2017, 04:51:14 PM
It could be a while yet. Hopefully it goes well.

Thanks for posting Rinix  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 08, 2017, 04:04:54 AM
You're welcome. :howdy http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=6#comment-175774
Quote from: Ssnake
Of course all kinds of tricks can be used to reduce the size of the problem, we're doing it all the time. But even then the fact remains that SB Pro version 4.0 does a lot more things per simulation/render cycle than version 3.0 (e.g. vehicle suspension), and with version 4.0 the line of sight calculations have increased by up to a factor of 512 (actually it's much less, but increasing the ground resolution by that factor also means that up to as many more LOS calculations could be needed). To put it in context, LOS calculations have the potential to be the biggest frame rate killer of all factors, in any simulation involving line of sight tests. So even if certain elements are only used within a "bubble" around certain actors, with many, dispersed actors the savings aren's as great, and you can't just randomly generate stuff if you need correlation - e.g. two players in a network session observing the same spot must have the same 3D representation of that spot's surroundings.

I guess what I want to say is that CPU cycles per frame are a finite resource, even if the limit is growing with new processor generations. So, whenever you add something there's a price to pay, and the question always is whether that price doesn't exceed the value of that new feature.

I also agree with inexus' reply when he says that Steel Beasts needs to move on to a newer graphics API (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=6#comment-175777).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 08, 2017, 03:40:11 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=6#comment-175784
Ssnake's attitude of characterizing performance improvements as "buzzwords" speaks volumes as to why nothing has been done about multithreading, or a newer graphics API or GPGPU compute or instanced rendering.
Quote from: Ssnake
When you increase LOS calculations by a factor of 512, no amount of multithreading will be able to offset that. That's not to say that multithreading isn't a worthwhile goal to pursue but it's always easier to throw buzzwords into a discussion than actually implementing the change. As far as crowd funding is concerned, all I can say is that I will not participate in any public debate of our business strategy. I'm here to explain our position to visitors that have no degree in computer science (why certain things are easy to do, but mostly why other things are hard, and that there's no free lunch in high performance computing).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 18, 2017, 05:22:21 PM
Some more info on WarUlf's video: http://www.terranis.se/en/news-5609627
Quote
The Terrain was built for SBPro using TerraTools new SBPro High-Res Export Node and LIDAR data on behalf of customer for an operational research project.
The customer must be Sweden, since it's using the Strv 122.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 18, 2017, 10:43:51 PM
BigBadVuk posted and asked if they could get more info on when the next release would come (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=6#comment-175926). Of course, all he got was snark. But at this point, it's got to be asked if eSim Games is hiding something. After how long we've been waiting, and how little communication there's been, I'm starting to believe that's what's happening.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 23, 2017, 04:35:52 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11799-graphical-issue-when-looking-through-tis-at-distance/#comment-176037
Just Ssnake mentioning the upcoming version number again.
Quote from: Ssnake
The road Z-fighting will be addressed in version 4.1
For the rest, we'd need a logarithmic z buffer. Doable, but not trivial to change.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on October 23, 2017, 05:30:54 PM
Thank you Rinix for keeping us informed  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 01, 2017, 05:22:41 PM
This was posted a while ago, but it sums up the issue with the "It will be ready, when its ready" (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=6#comment-175942) attitude: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=6#comment-175956
Quote from: kraze
Quote from: daskal
(http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/Duke-Nukem-Forever-Delayed-Again-2.jpg)
In his case it didn't end well.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 01, 2017, 05:37:13 PM
In the mean time I enjoy my 7cm per pixel in flight sim  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 02, 2017, 01:08:05 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=7#comment-176232
Quote from: Ssnake
At the moment the team needs to work on a number of open contracts where we're approaching deadlines. There was a window of opportunity at the end of September, but that one didn't work out. Right now a release would be tough to manage.

haraldhe says it all: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=7#comment-176242
Quote from: haraldhe
Ssnake means to say: paying customers are more important then private people entitled to free updates/upgrades.-_-
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 02, 2017, 03:19:05 PM
There was a time in the not so distant past when it seemed that eSims policy was that the private (military) contracts were the primary focus and the public (PE) license was secondary.....Many people felt that they were made to feel "lucky" to be able to purchase a license. This is with a product costing $125 + $40 regular upgrade fees.......
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 02, 2017, 03:47:11 PM
There was a time in the not so distant past when it seemed that eSims policy was that the private (military) contracts were the primary focus and the public (PE) license was secondary.....Many people felt that they were made to feel "lucky" to be able to purchase a license. This is with a product costing $125 + $40 regular upgrade fees.......
My, how things have changed: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=7#comment-176243
Quote from: Grenny/Ronin
That is not what he said. And I strongly disagree with  your personal interpretation.
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=7#comment-176244
Quote from: mpow66m
Esim has bent over backwards for its non military players.you must be new yo the forums.
The sad part is that I saw this coming. The exact message Ssnake has been sending, for a long time, through mentions of where their income comes from, military contracts getting in the way, etc., is: The military customers come first, the enthusiast market comes second.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 02, 2017, 04:18:29 PM

Quote from: mpow66m
Esim has bent over backwards for its non military players.you must be new yo the forums.

I fail to see this  :confused.  I paid FULL price for my license. Paid updates are just that...Paid for a service/product.

One things for sure. You could not have a discussion like this on "some" sites  :beatings
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lumituisku on November 02, 2017, 05:06:00 PM

It's either language barrier or that I do not follow their forums at all, or that im just really really tired after being servant to my mother, animals and dad for a week...  but I fail to understand full meaning your post Rinix. Could you clarify it to me please.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 02, 2017, 05:15:59 PM

It's either language barrier or that I do not follow their forums at all, or that im just really really tired after being servant to my mother, animals and dad for a week...  but I fail to understand full meaning your post Rinix. Could you clarify it to me please.
OK. My point is that for eSim Games, the military customers come first, while us enthusiasts come second. This has been demonstrated by Ssnake in the following ways:
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 02, 2017, 10:43:44 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=7#comment-176248
Quote from: CharlieB
Patience will pay off.
I'll respond by quoting this again, and by saying that Steel Beasts Pro PE 4.1 had better not turn into Steel Nukem Forever, joining other infamous games like Duke Nukem Forever, Half-Nukem Forever (Half-Life 3), and Star Nukem Forever (Star Citizen):
Quote from: kraze
Quote from: daskal
(http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/Duke-Nukem-Forever-Delayed-Again-2.jpg)
In his case it didn't end well.


http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=7#comment-176251
Quote from: Gibsonm
Well if you are paying salaries and putting bread on your table at home then yes that makes sense.

If the paying customers aren't satisfied and the contracts disappear, then there would be a drastically reduced resource base for any development.

However whilst being a member of a "paying customer" I also endorse the view that eSim has provided excellent support to its "mere" (to borrow your tone) private people.
I wouldn't call the general lack of communication about 4.1 "excellent support".
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 03, 2017, 01:27:43 AM
As if I didn't make it clear enough: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=7#comment-176255
Quote from: Ssnake
Any development that we do is directly or indirectly dependent on profits earned from sales to military customers; most of our work you get from direct development to some army customer, some of it (like the M60, T-72, BMP-2, BRDM, BTR, ...) you get because we can afford to work on it, thanks to profits made from previous military sales.

That being said, while being an important aspect, this is actually of secondary relevance; what really matters is that we have contractual obligations to fulfill, and contractual obligations always have the highest priority. A contract is a contract is a contract, period. (If I promise to the general public that we will deliver a new terrain engine, free of charge, to all customers of the 4.0 version, that actually is a contract too; it's just that there's no deadline tied to it (and no late delivery penalty payment).)

Losing support contracts, and losing an army customer as a contract partner for new customizations would eventually hurt you PE customers worse than a delay of a release by a few months. You will eventually get your update, rest assured about that. I made a promise. I will keep that promise. But you have to understand certain realities. Even if we did not depend on army money to finance our work, we would still depend on armies granting us access to armored combat vehicles. Ask yourself how likely it would be to get that access if we weren't working for them?
Yeah, Ssnake, about promises... Another promise you made was that we would be getting the new terrain engine in July (https://www.esimgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/SBProPE_4-018_RN.pdf). It's 4 months later, you've piled on 100,000 lines of code, and you're not visibly any closer to completion.

I'm having a bit of difficulty believing Ssnake's claims about what they can afford to work on. Of the 5 examples he cites, 3
are or were recently in use with some of his clients (Brazil for the M60A3 (TTS), Finland for the T-72A/M1 and BMP-2, speaking of which, hurry up and get Finland to give you a customization contract for the BMP-2MD). All 3 of them got 3D clickable interiors. I just don't think you would have gone to that effort without customization contracts being involved. The other 2, the BRDM-2 and BTR, did not require much effort. The BTR-60, 70, and 80 have incredibly simple interiors, the BRDM-2 had an incredibly simply interior from its release in 2.640 to its vastly improved, but still not clickable, interior in 4.019, over 5 years later.

And even if you didn't depend on armies to finance your work, there's always museums.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lumituisku on November 03, 2017, 06:58:37 AM

Soo...  i guess what messed me up was the sarcasm spoken here or something becasue I have not expected things to change. Military first. Second hand next. Mostly I was upset about comment "How things have change and all related stuff. Because I thouhg there was something I didnt know.

Anyways...


Finland no longer officially has t72s.  Whether we truly have some of them or not...  I do not know. It is said to be legend or rumor that we still have some as "Reserve"   so better to believe that we do not. Atleast not sufficient amount to make any difference.

As for BMP2 and their modernisation.  Updates that were done to bmp2. As far as I know...  didnt change how origianl vehicle worked. Same levers and buttoms are still used for same purposes according to magazine that I wrote about the update. Just new much more powerful internal equipment were build inside the optics devices and so.
 Also I believe that it serves Finland best to continue training regular bmp2  as these updates were just additions as far as I understood. The way how original vehicle works didnt truly change that much.  or so I understood. Just its cababilities got MAJOR boost. 
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 05, 2017, 03:01:22 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=7#comment-176302
Does inexus live in Bizarro World?
Quote from: inexus
Quote from: BigBadVuk
That is ok, but dont go public with promises about new patch next time tho...

I dont see the point in making public announcements about something you cant deliver for like a year... Just publish it once it is ready next time.
-1
You know how to push the wrong buttons mate.

You are not helping with supporting an open and transparent communication between esim and the users... esim with their best intentions giving insights into their work and they go beyond what many companies would do for their customers to provide us with as much information as possible.

If you prefer only to know when a patch or release truly come out it is better if you follow the standard sales pages to see public patch releases when they come out.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 05, 2017, 04:11:36 PM
Everyone has their own opinion. They are entitled to it.

I am used to eSims failing to deliver on time. I do not think they do it on purpose. It is how the company is.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lumituisku on November 05, 2017, 04:30:30 PM
Game updates...

When you expect it... it seems to be always just coming... and like it would never tryly get out.

And when youre not expecting it...  it knocks on door reminging that you should.


I dont know about dynamic terrain though. I do kinda feel that Esims has for long spoiled a lot of stuff they are working on. That there is little to surprice us. Then again.. on last major updade we got BMP-2 and other nice vehicles that we were not expecting, and other stuff...  so I do dare to hope that there would be atleast small kinder eggs on this dynamic terrain that we are not being told about.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 05, 2017, 04:52:33 PM
I think the problem with the delays is from them having difficulty in fixing bugs, because of the code itself. I've written about this earlier in this thread (http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,3441.msg24062.html#msg24062). To that I add some more from dejawolf: "the main problem with SB is that it is a legacy engine built for speed, not expandability. as such, changing what seems like simple things can take years, since you pretty much have to carefully go through and completely rewrite large sections of code that is more than 500 000 lines long, and then make sure that the thousands of things that can break doesn't." (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10355-sb-pro-pe-40-discussion-thread/?page=42#comment-152375)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 05, 2017, 06:06:22 PM
"the main problem with SB is that it is a legacy engine built for speed, not expandability. as such, changing what seems like simple things can take years, since you pretty much have to carefully go through and completely rewrite large sections of code that is more than 500 000 lines long, and then make sure that the thousands of things that can break doesn't."

(http://www.textures4photoshop.com/tex/thumbs/matrix-code-animation-gif-free-animated-background-716.gif)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 05, 2017, 08:20:09 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=7#comment-176311
Quote from: Ssnake
I will be the first to acknowledge that I could have been more careful and reserved about the announcements. But there is the problem that I must announce what's in an update at a point where not everything is settled. We announced the new terrain in 2016 in good faith because we had it working. Okay, there were issues with a certain loss of flexibility in map editing that we developers didn't see/didn't take as serious as they were, until the only solution was to cut the new terrain engine and at least release what we had. That was in August 2016.
Next I was pressed to make a statement when the promised feature of the new terrain engine actually WOULD be delivered, and our best estimate at the time was six months. Unfortunately we didn't take into account the changes that were made to infantry pathfinding at the same time which, for efficiency reasons, had to be made in the same code branch as the new terrain. THEN it turns out that the changes there are both good, but also come with a few serious bugs that again we cannot release the software with the high res terrain without creating more damage in other places. OK, so we delay the release again to fix those infantry bugs.
At the same time we're running into problems with an entirely unrelated project that's just eating up a lot of development time, which inevitably takes away from the time needed to fix the PE beta so it's mature for a release. And THEN we overshoot the window of opportunity for a release, at which point a lot of other projects HAVE to be given priority. These non-linear effects are difficult to predict. The only way around that would be to remain extremely vague and non-committal in all public communication, or to release bug-ridden garbage on time. Both options, I think, are not in your interest as mature consumers of our product. You want to be informed in time, you want to know what to expect, you want adherence to deadlines, and you want mature and stable software at a reasonably low price.
There's the adage that in software development, of the three categories "cheap", "good", and "fast" you may only pick two without compromising. Sometimes things just don't work out as planned. I can but ask any reader of this forum to take my predictions with a grain of salt. The future always was, and will always remain to be inherently unknown. Only CPT Hindsight can predict the past (when teaming up with CPT Obvious). We mere mortals have to make do with estimations.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 13, 2017, 07:57:26 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11835-sb-4019-vehicle-mounted-troop-issues/#comment-176487
Quote from: Ssnake
The legacy HE model is somewhat capricious on occasion. We'll replace it with the next major release (after the New Terrain update).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 13, 2017, 08:19:32 PM
The HE issue has been there for a long time, If not forever. SB is not as accurate or realistic as many think. It is a great simulation when you work within its limitations.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 19, 2017, 03:49:53 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=8#comment-176641
Quote from: BigBadVuk
We are talking here about delay of 12+ months, not day or two or weeks because patch with terrain was supposed to happen somewhere around summer 2016, i cant even recall the exact month.... And even by saying that i really dont have any grudge against SSnake or his company - they are giving us something we could only dream off before year 2000...
AS someone with 10+ years of Xp in gaming community handling, im simply stating dont go public with date or announcements until you are 110% sure you can hit that date. It is bad for company image and it aggravate players without a reason because they expect the patch. Nothing more.. If you thought im pushing your buttons on purpose, then i apologize.  I had zero intentions to troll you or any other member of this community.

I've also been thinking more about Ssnake's previously quoted post. It's dysfunctional of him to say "The only way around that would be to remain extremely vague and non-committal in all public communication," and then be generally exactly that over the past several months. But never mind that "Both options, I think, are not in your interest as mature consumers of our product. You want to be informed in time, you want to know what to expect, you want adherence to deadlines, and you want mature and stable software at a reasonably low price." As Ssnake has also said, "Contracts have priority." (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/4546-steel-beasts-content-wish-list/?page=176#comment-159059)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 19, 2017, 04:33:25 PM
" As Ssnake has also said, "Contracts have priority." (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/4546-steel-beasts-content-wish-list/?page=176#comment-159059)

It has always been this way. I remember when this point was pushed harder and it was implied that we were lucky to get SB Pro, even though we paid more than $115 for it.

I have many products from many developers. Some are better than others at dealing with their customer base than others.

Whenever I read an update about SB Pro, I just think "maybe someday it will come out". I am used to it now.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 19, 2017, 06:44:11 PM
It has always been this way. I remember when this point was pushed harder and it was implied that we were lucky to get SB Pro, even though we paid more than $115 for it.
We are paying more than $115 for it right now, the current price is back to $125.

Quote
I have many products from many developers. Some are better than others at dealing with their customer base than others.
Yes. Frankie has already said that eSim Games could learn from others in informing their customers (http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,1972.msg16866.html#msg16866).

Quote
Whenever I read an update about SB Pro, I just think "maybe someday it will come out". I am used to it now.
It's sad that it's come to this.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 19, 2017, 09:05:56 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=8#comment-176657
Ssnake's response to BigBadVuk contains nothing new. It amounts to a shutting down of the conversation.
Quote from: Ssnake
If you want absolute certainty, I can go back to the mode of announcing "Oh, we just uploaded a new version, by the way"

If that's what you want, all you need is to check the eSim Games Downloads page (http://www.esimgames.com/?page_id=1390) for changes.


If you want information in advance - like the vast majority of readers of this forum want - you'll have to live with the fact that my predictions about the future not always turn out to be accurate. In 2016 we HAD a working high res terrain, but it lacked in usability because of some changed workflow that was considered too restrictive. This forced us to release 4.0 without the high res terrain support. The user interface had to be redesigned. Our projections suggested half a year of work to do so, which then turned out to be more like eight months. Six months or eight, not too bad either. But then you have "events" and the delays caused by them result in non-linear effects (when you have collisions with other projects, and/or interdependencies). Once that you have a collision between two projects there's a cascade of collisions where either everything goes down, or you decide to pull out one element and push it back to the end of the queue so you can save the rest.

This is what happened. I'm sorry about that, but unapologetic. We need those other development project to earn money. Without that money, no PE version. With those other projects come contractual obligations and hard deadlines. They took priority in the past, they will receive priority in the future. This is nothing new to anyone following our work.

So, again, all I can say is that our announcements reflect the best of our knowledge at the time that we make these announcements. Note that I stopped making predictions since about July, yet it is you and others in this thread who are poking me to make new predictions. So some hate me for not making predictions, others hate me for confusing my projections with promises. We have two different words for these because they aren't the same. 110% certainty is not only mathematically ludicrous, even if we reduce it to 100% certainty it means not to make any announcements, ever, at all, until after the fact, at which point the whole thing loses is usefulness.

I could of course publish our entire development schedule in its full glory and update it on a weekly basis. But, well, it contains business secrets. I'm not at liberty to reveal everything. In summary, you will have to learn to live with a certain degree of obscurity and lack of certainty.


In this world, nothing is certain - but death, and taxes.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 19, 2017, 09:27:07 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=8#comment-176657
Ssnake's response to BigBadVuk contains nothing new. It amounts to a shutting down of the conversation.


Typical response. Like I said, I will play it when it is out. There are many excellent sims/wargames out there with really good devs who appreciate their community  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 26, 2017, 04:12:30 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=8#comment-176885
I agree with kraze.
Quote from: kraze
One solution that can make everyone happy while we wait is rather simple. Videos. Yeah yeah there's one about "dted is dead" that shows new terrain but just showing a few new minutes of a progress made can chill everyone. Especially if there is more to the upcoming patch than just a terrain engine.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 26, 2017, 04:51:37 PM
 :popcorn
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 26, 2017, 06:20:23 PM
And the predictable strawman from Gibson: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=8#comment-176888
Quote from: Gibsonm
And the net result of that is:

1. People have to be taken off doing the wrok to make the video.

2. People see the video and say "well if you can make a video then why can't you release it".

Any comments about it being a special case or being done on only one map and it doesn't work universally, etc. will be lost in the clamour.
Hey Gibson:
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 27, 2017, 01:19:14 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=8#comment-176906
Ssnake isn't making any sense. Why would an upgrade to DirectX 11 need to be simultaneous across "all versions"? Games that are released cross-platform on the PC can play together in multiplayer. The rendering in DirectX 11 wouldn't affect compatibility with older versions of Steel Beasts, even if you leave out the reality that different versions of Steel Beasts don't play well in multiplayer.
Quote from: Ssnake
Going DX11 would be a major task, and it would be done simultaneously across all versions.

Let us finish the work on the new terrain and better infantry AI, please. That's more than enough of a bite to chew on.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 27, 2017, 04:57:08 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=8#comment-176910
Vikingo's hope is my hope as well.
Quote from: Vikingo
No problem! Just please don't go DX12  :P Vulcan is nice option and you don't have to install Windows 10 xD
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 29, 2017, 03:37:59 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=8#comment-176922
At least as a result of this joke, we know the new terrain engine is coming after December 11.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 29, 2017, 04:03:29 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=8#comment-176922
At least as a result of this joke, we know the new terrain engine is coming after December 11.

I don't know what was posted (I don't visit that site) but it will come someday. Esims is like Eagle Dynamics in some ways......
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 29, 2017, 04:29:27 PM
I don't know what was posted (I don't visit that site) but it will come someday. Esims is like Eagle Dynamics in some ways......
What was posted was an inside joke from the Il-2 community, referencing 2 weeks to completion. Ssnake's reaction proves that the new terrain engine is coming after December 11 (two weeks after the post was made).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 29, 2017, 04:44:20 PM
 :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on December 09, 2017, 11:10:54 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/4546-steel-beasts-content-wish-list/?page=226#comment-177165
Quote from: Ssnake
Not necessarily, as you always have the option to create a "delta map" that will be (very) small in size if the barriers are all that you add compared to a base map, and they can still be embedded in the scenario file. I concede that it would be more convenient and in would make more sense from the tactical/user interface perspective, but as long as we're under serious time pressure in our development we have to settle for "minimally invasive" changes to the code base.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lumituisku on December 12, 2017, 04:07:56 PM
I don't know what was posted (I don't visit that site) but it will come someday. Esims is like Eagle Dynamics in some ways......
What was posted was an inside joke from the Il-2 community, referencing 2 weeks to completion. Ssnake's reaction proves that the new terrain engine is coming after December 11 (two weeks after the post was made).

Did Ssnake mention year as well?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on December 12, 2017, 04:14:54 PM
Did Ssnake mention year as well?
No.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lumituisku on December 12, 2017, 04:23:38 PM
Did Ssnake mention year as well?
No.

Atleast he said... After 11th.. so all hope is not yet lost.  Though...  Im not as daring to hope as in the past.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on December 12, 2017, 07:45:16 PM

Did Ssnake mention year as well?

 :laughing4
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on December 13, 2017, 03:19:03 PM
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4394552/re-fs-sb-4-0-pro-85#Post4394552
Quote from: Ssnake
It will be. I promised high res terrain to be a part of the 4.0 release. OK, we couldn't finish the work for the initial release, and yes, it's now almost 18 months later and there's still no high res terrain for you, but it will be made available, for free, to owners of 4.0 licenses. I made that promise, I intend to keep my word.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on December 13, 2017, 03:36:28 PM
Some of the language in that post is unbecoming of a developer  :thumbdown
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on December 13, 2017, 03:54:41 PM
Some of the language in that post is unbecoming of a developer  :thumbdown
What about it is unbecoming of a developer?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on December 13, 2017, 04:01:55 PM
What about it is unbecoming of a developer?

The general tone. As well as words like "leeches". It is the same tone which comes across as arrogant at times. I understand having pride in your work but I feel that one should address concerns in a different manner.

MY OPINION
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on December 13, 2017, 04:06:40 PM
The general tone. As well as words like "leeches". It is the same tone which comes across as arrogant at times. I understand having pride in your work but I feel that one should address concerns in a different manner.

MY OPINION
Oh, I see, the use of "leeches" occurred a few posts above the one I linked to. And you are right about Ssnake's tone. He's had... problems with that. Here's another example: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/3732-well-its-a-new-year-so-why-dont-i-head-over-the-trench/#comment-58918
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on December 14, 2017, 05:01:31 AM
To clarify, here's what Ssnake said in the post I linked to earlier: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/3732-well-its-a-new-year-so-why-dont-i-head-over-the-trench/#comment-58918
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: BaLrOg_70
Of late I have noticed that e-sim has when confronted with suggestions regarding potential enhancements or additions to this simulator, given what seems to be becoming the standard response.
Just as well I could point out that time and again I have been confronted with basically the same questions that I answered countless times before. At the very least I take it from your remark that I have remained consistent in my answers for the past years. You may not have meant this the be a compliment, but I take it as one. :)
As long as the fundamental business situation doesn't change, I wonder what makes you expect changes in the answer?
Anyway, I suppose you are venting in an attempt that goes a bit deeper than the "polite standard response", so here you go:
I suppose we could try to change our business model in favor of WW2 stuff and micro transactions, but I think I also mentioned since 1998 that our personal interest is not WW2 but contemporary armor, partly as a matter of personal preference and professional background, partly because WW2 has been approached by so many other game developers, partly because it would mean to give up the one reliable and established market for training solutions for which we fought with nails and teeth for the better part of a decade.
Like it or not, the harsh reality is that eSim Games follows a business strategy that isn't compatible with your ideas of how we should run our business. We do what we think is best for the long-term interests of the company, and the #1 priority is to survive as a business entity. The Game Developers' Cemetery is full of companies and teams that didn't make it past their fifth year, and especially independent developer teams have, on average, a life expectancy that approximates that of fruit flies.
Our experience with game publishers hasn't been particularly encouraging to put it mildly, and both were said to be the nicer guys of the lot. Game sales are extremely cyclic and unpredictable by nature. You invest money for years, and if you don't get back your investment within three months after releasing a title chances are that you are and will remain financially screwed. Excuse me, but if there is a viable alternative of government agencies who will honor contracts to the letter, who enter long-term software maintenance contracts with the resulting stable and reliable cash flow to allow us to plan for two to five years ahead, I will pick that option. I may be self-employed, but I still like to not be awake at night worrying how I might pay the dues next month or whether I may just digging an even deeper hole with a certain development decision that will cost more money with unclear chances for a positive return on investment.
Maybe you consider this mindset as entrepreneurial cowardice. I call it due diligence and responsible decision-making. Four people are now working full-time for eSim, another four are part-time working on Steel Beasts. My job as "the commercial department" brings the responsibility to make sure that all of them can rely on regular payments without the need to get the company owners into irresponsible, personal debt. Unlike certain high-paid business executives I do not take this responsibility lightly. We created jobs that exceed the quality of burger-flipping considerably, and I have every intention to maintain these jobs for as long as possible.
I have been ridiculed by personal friends as a daydreamer for working on a crazy thing like Steel Beasts in the first place, fought against nay-sayers in the military that PC based training tools would never be a viable alternative. I can certainly endure forum wisecracks on the sidelines suggesting how I should run our business. But I expect that, even if you can't accept my decisions, at least you will respect them for what they are - expressions of my free will, accepted responsibility for the well-being of all the people who are financially dependent on eSim's commercial success, and the pursuit of happiness by following a certain business vision.
I hope that you can learn to accept Steel Beasts for what it is instead of concentrating on what it doesn't even attempt to be. My yardstick to measure success is how closely SB Pro approximates the ideal, a comprehensive and thorough survey simulation of contemporary, armor/mech centric combined arms combat at tactical level. If you can't subscribe to this end-state, I suppose the resulting product isn't your cup of tea.
Quote from: BaLrOg_70
The addons we do get whilst appreciated and finished to a very good fine standard do seem to be a tad random and I can only assume to be some 'wouldn't it be nice if' idea from some grey suited bureaucrat who was filling in a feed back sheet to kill off another hour of his/her day.
You have a strange way to express the appreciation that you claim to be feeling. I concede that there indeed is some element of randomness in the additions, but since you aren't interested in the background because it's "the standard answer" that you get "from all the other software houses" I'm not sure if you are actually interested in a true exchange of opinions.
I'm not saying that we have no other choice. Everybody always has a choice (the question is whether you can accept the consequences). But I think I made clear what our goals are, and where our priorities lie. The rest follows from those fundamental decisions.
Limitations that we experience in our freedom to develop "other stuff" which is less dictated by our army customers' training requirements can only be overcome by growing our development capacity. I think I said this as early as 2006 that we would like to take a bit of time off to hire additional programmers, but that we couldn't do this before approximately 2009 due to formal and informal business commitments. Okay, it took us a year longer than anticipated in 2006. Staying the course in our business was at times like wild water rafting with an oil tanker. I am extremely proud that we managed to fulfill these commitments and delivered about 75% of what was promised during that time, and I am very happy to report that with the expansion of the team we have now prepared the ground to service the demands of our customers better than ever before.
eSim Games is my first business, and I am not ashamed to confess that we had to learn how to run our business on the go. We overestimated certain trends and underestimated others, that's just the nature of running a business. Not every plan survives contact with reality. All in all I think that things turned out remarkably well. Steel Beasts has made tremendous progress from its early days to now in pursuit of the ideals that I described above.
We managed to follow an idea that formed in 2002, at a point where it was everything from clear whether the whole venture would actually work out. The development path that we took may appear be a bit winded, labyrinthine even to some. Consider a streak of lightning that follows the path of least resistance through the atmosphere; it ultimately follows a straight and simple course to channel two points of differing electric potentials. Just like that, we have an idea where we want to go, and a dynamic business environment represents the convective currents of an atmosphere that force occasional twists and turns in the direction. Still, by looking at where Steel Beasts was in 2002 and comparing it with what it is today, even a casual observer should be able to make out that all in all we have been following a pretty straight course.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on December 15, 2017, 03:10:03 PM
These posts from PzAbt 911(v)'s forum are from October, but they are still useful:
https://www.steelbeasts.org/showthread.php?8338-Neue-Gel%E4nde-Engine&p=58365&viewfull=1#post58365
Quote from: Ssnake
Due to other circumstances, however, it has unfortunately come to collisions with deadlines for other projects, which we must treat with priority. After all, just about half of our programmers are still working on the PE version at the moment.

https://www.steelbeasts.org/showthread.php?8338-Neue-Gel%E4nde-Engine&p=58393&viewfull=1#post58393
Quote from: Ssnake
I wonder if Christmas is going to happen, to be honest.

It was planned at the end of September. That didn `t work. Now we have plenty of deadlines on other projects where we are contracted. The end of the year is always hectic. Rather still would be expected at the end of January / mid-February. At some point I have to consider the workforce.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lumituisku on December 15, 2017, 05:27:44 PM

In all honesty.. probably better if it doesnt come during chrismass... Im intending to play steelbeast with my finnish friend Mika and some others. id hate to put them to do long download of update or something.  Though there is always possibility that I just ignore the update as long as I can...  but if it comes... Im not sure if I will be able to ignore it. >.<   
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 02, 2018, 11:30:46 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11950-can-you-still-buy-a-dvd-copyprinted-manual/?tab=comments#comment-178016
Quote from: Ssnake
We have withheld a new production batch mostly for two reasons,
  • the new terrain engine, originally scheduled for summer 2016, would require a rewrite of significant parts of the manual
  • the new terrain engine will bring a split of installers, one for the program code, and a separate one for the maps
It took longer than expected, unfortunately.
My workaround advice for people with really bad internet connections: Download in an internet café, print the current PDF manual in a copy shop. Not a great option, I give you that, but maybe not the worst thing either if downloading 5 x 600 MByte is absolutely no option for you. Eventually we will make a new production run, I'm just hesitant to order it now when we expect it to become obsolete in less than a year.

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11950-can-you-still-buy-a-dvd-copyprinted-manual/?tab=comments#comment-178020
Quote from: Ssnake
Well, we would always offer the DVD and manual as separate items that you could order independently from the license. I mean, what good is a time-based license when you have to download the installation files anyway (your first post suggested that this would be a problem)?

So, the decision to go for one license type or the other should be made independently from the question whether physical media are up for sale. Chances are, before we start the actual production we'll offer a preorder option so we can better estimate production lot size. Most likely there will be a special preorder bundle offer.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on January 03, 2018, 12:07:10 AM
Esim games still has an issue with download size..... :confused
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 03, 2018, 02:49:24 AM
Esim games still has an issue with download size..... :confused
Yeah, the last 3 "patches" have been full installers. :crazy
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 21, 2018, 12:29:48 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11831-next-sb-pro-pe-upgrade/?tab=comments#comment-178746
Has anyone else noticed that Ssnake has only been forthcoming about predicted release dates in the release notes, and has been strangely silent about predicted release dates on the forum? Does anyone on that forum read the release notes? Because judging by the rest of that thread, the answer is no.
Quote from: Ssnake
The problem is that we missed the window of opportunity to make a major new release in last September/October. We tried to get it ready by then but it didn't work out. Since then we're stuck with working on contractual obligations, and that will stay this way for a while. We still have some team members working on the terrain engine but even if all remaining issues were reported "solved" tomorrow morning we would still need to launch another beta test. A beta test ties down more team resources than we can afford to assign to non-contractual tasks, and it would be irresponsible to release a new version without a proper beta test. For a release all lights need to be green, and that lamp will remain solid red for a while.

So, version 4.023 represents the essence of what came out of the last beta test, as far as 4.019 bug fixes were concerned, so we decided to at least push that part out.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on January 21, 2018, 12:31:57 AM
Beta test? Really?  :confused
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 21, 2018, 12:43:07 AM
The beta test for 4.0 was 4 months long, since it started in April 2016 (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10346-where-is-info-on-pe-40/?tab=comments#comment-149955) and 4.0 was released in August 2016. If we use that length for the beta test, and the new terrain engine is coming in July as per the release notes, then we should be hearing about the next beta test starting in March.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on January 21, 2018, 12:54:31 AM
I was just curious about their Beta test process. It seems that there is often obvious bugs released. Some of which are quite bad. This is disappointing.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 21, 2018, 01:45:22 AM
I was just curious about their Beta test process. It seems that there is often obvious bugs released. Some of which are quite bad. This is disappointing.
Yeah, it's been so disappointing that we've had to stick with 4.019. Ssnake has said that there's going to be at least 1 more free update before the new terrain engine (http://www.esimgames.com/?p=2169). Now would be a good time to fix the 4.023 bugs and get that free update released.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 23, 2018, 03:52:29 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11831-next-sb-pro-pe-upgrade/?tab=comments#comment-178777
This raises the question of why they haven't started rewriting the code for ease of maintenance to lighten their workload.
Quote from: Ssnake
Thank you for your understanding.
Our team is much bigger than it used to be ten years ago, but in order to sustain the larger number of programmers we also have to accept more customization work from our other customers. This leads to a weaving of work on the PE version and then on the classroom version again, which is sensitive to delays unfortunately. We can't change contractual obligations easily, so we cannot afford that work on the PE version delays deliveries on other projects.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on January 23, 2018, 08:30:57 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11831-next-sb-pro-pe-upgrade/?tab=comments#comment-178777
This raises the question of why they haven't started rewriting the code for ease of maintenance to lighten their workload.


But that would make sense  :happyhappy
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 26, 2018, 01:00:09 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11831-next-sb-pro-pe-upgrade/?tab=comments#comment-178777
This raises the question of why they haven't started rewriting the code for ease of maintenance to lighten their workload.


But that would make sense  :happyhappy

It looks like Ssnake's finally figured it out, so there's hope: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11831-next-sb-pro-pe-upgrade/?tab=comments#comment-178891
Quote from: Ssnake
Hey, 2009 we still had 1 programmer. End of 2010, three. End of 2012, five. Whether we can expand the size to seven or eight (my target figure) hinges entirely on the amount of money that you army guys are willing to spend on purchasing licenses and paying for maintenance (development contracts don't do me much good since they eat up all the additional programming capacity that I need to modernize the code base). With a modernized code base we could be a lot more productive, so that's a bit of a catch-22.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Wax Savage on January 27, 2018, 05:00:31 PM
I have something to add to this thread.

I exchanged some emails with Ssnake a few weeks back. We corresponded on the subject of how much benefit the new LIDAR scan data would be for the SBproPE user. Like you, I had assumed that the LIDAR data would make a big improvement in SB. Ssnake responded, ‘yes and no’. 

Per Ssnake, to benefit from LIDAR, the map file must be constructed to take advantage of LIDAR. Unfortunately, all existing maps and scenarios were written to use DTED2 data. The SB maps as they currently exist cannot read the new LIDAR scan data.

Ssnake explained that LIDAR scan data is harder to come by and quite expensive. His feeling is that government agencies who have sophisticated mapping systems and access to LIDAR data will benefit.

Ssnake stated that the computer code team at eSim Games has no plans to rewrite the existing maps currently included with Steel Beasts.

What benefit SBproPE users will see from the new terrain engine remains a question.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 27, 2018, 05:51:50 PM
I have something to add to this thread.

I exchanged some emails with Ssnake a few weeks back. We corresponded on the subject of how much benefit the new LIDAR scan data would be for the SBproPE user. Like you, I had assumed that the LIDAR data would make a big improvement in SB. Ssnake responded, ‘yes and no’. 

Per Ssnake, to benefit from LIDAR, the map file must be constructed to take advantage of LIDAR. Unfortunately, all existing maps and scenarios were written to use DTED2 data. The SB maps as they currently exist cannot read the new LIDAR scan data.

Ssnake explained that LIDAR scan data is harder to come by and quite expensive. His feeling is that government agencies who have sophisticated mapping systems and access to LIDAR data will benefit.

Ssnake stated that the computer code team at eSim Games has no plans to rewrite the existing maps currently included with Steel Beasts.

What benefit SBproPE users will see from the new terrain engine remains a question.
Very interesting, thanks a lot! My takeaways:
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Wax Savage on January 28, 2018, 08:09:40 PM
Very interesting, thanks a lot! My takeaways:
  • Old scenarios will not be able to use LIDAR data
  • This means that the old maps will have to remain to maintain backwards compatibility, which is confirmed by the fact that they have no plans to rewrite current maps
  • We won't see many LIDAR-based maps
  • Considering how little the new terrain engine will actually add, its release had better come with a decent selection of new vehicles, even if none of them are crewable
  • Edit: If I'm reading you right, then all of Steel Beasts' maps using DTED2 means they have 30m terrain resolution, while Steel Beasts currently has a maximum terrain resolution of 12.5m, which means that none of the old maps will benefit at all

As I recall the conversation with Ssnake, the existing maps read DTED2 and/or DTED3 mapping data (DTED3 displays detail to ~10m terrain resolution). Most likely, the early
boxed SB game was DTED2 resolution.  Whatever.., the LIDAR mapping data can't be read by ANY existing SB maps. All existing SB scenarios, therefore, cannot read LIDAR.

Though Ssnake and I did not discuss it, you make a good observation... the new engine will need to be backwardly compatible for DTED3 data for us 'mortals'.

Since LIDAR map data is scarce, I can imagine we retail customers (SBproPE) will still be writing DTED3 scenarios into the future.

p.s.
For those geeky enough to be interested, attached is a document that explains DTED quite well.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on January 28, 2018, 11:40:00 PM
OK, thanks for confirming that some of the maps are DTED3. Those maps will see some improvement, since they are 10m terrain resolution, and Steel Beasts currently has a maximum terrain resolution of 12.5m.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on February 08, 2018, 01:43:00 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12038-spintires-tank-mods/?tab=comments#comment-179296
I thought for a while about where to post this, and finally decided to post it here.
Quote from: Ssnake
We need to be able to handle 100x100km², some of our customers would rather have 300x300, or why not have the entire globe available right away, while we're at it?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 04, 2018, 03:41:59 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.org/showthread.php?8420-Gibt-es-schon-einen-Termin-f%FCr-5-0&p=58587&viewfull=1#post58587
I'm having to settle for posting this, due to a lack of better information:
Quote from: Ssnake
There are not even plans for a version 5.0
Currently 4.1 is in progress. And as soon as we have concrete plans, I will announce them.

The 4.023 release notes say that we can expect 4.1 in July (https://www.esimgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/SBProPE_4-023_RN-1.pdf), and Ssnake has said that "The full feature disclosure will usually begin six to eight weeks prior to the anticipated release date." (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10007-2016-payware-upgrade/#comment-145064) So we can expect a stream of news no later than the middle of June, assuming no delays.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on March 04, 2018, 04:03:13 PM
Thanks for the German to English version of this update Rinix. I too am hoping for a 'patch' of some sort for 4.023, be it in an actual hotfix or a newer version of Steelbeasts.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 04, 2018, 04:05:50 PM
Thanks for the update Rinix. I too am hoping for a 'patch' of some sort for 4.023, be it in an actual hotfix or a newer version of Steelbeasts.
Me too. We were promised "At least one more free update..." (http://www.esimgames.com/?p=2169).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 14, 2018, 03:57:43 AM
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/01/12/the-flare-path-hows-it-going-2/
This is from January. And who are we to believe, Ssnake when he says in the 4.023 release notes "the next update, currently scheduled for July 2017" (https://www.esimgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/SBProPE_4-023_RN-1.pdf), or Ssnake when says that "I’m not entirely sure when we will find the time for another attempt to release the 4.1 version with the high-res terrain engine"?
Quote from: Ssnake
“One of the things we’ve been working on in 2017 was the replacement of all of Steel Beasts’ foliage artwork with new grass and trees. This is intended to complement the release of the new high-res terrain engine which is now scheduled for this year.

I could explain in depth (and bore everyone to death in the process) why the terrain engine delays happened. At the end of the day it was a combination of underestimating the cascading effect of changing one fundamental design parameter – increasing the ground resolution by a factor of 512 – and the desire of our users to see established workflows maintained (like last-minute changes on a map when designing a scenario). This was perfectly valid of course but difficult to implement when inflated file sizes meet rural low-bandwidth internet connections. Not everybody lives in the city.

Anyway, these technical constraints forced us to become more creative with the way that we’re managing resources, which in turn required user interface design changes… and we still have other projects to work on. So eventually the window of opportunity for a release in September ’17 closed, and all that we could do was to at least wrap up all the bug fixes that were made during the last summer’s beta test phase which is now 4.023 that we released last month.

We are now in a phase where we have a number of contractual obligations to meet so I’m not entirely sure when we will find the time for another attempt to release the 4.1 version with the high-res terrain engine. What I can say is that 4.1 isn’t in a bad shape, just not quite ready for a public release. A part of the team will continue to work on it, and once it reaches maturity we will push it out. It’s just that we can’t have the full team work exclusively on this right now. That’s the downside of our hybrid business. But then again, without that business model there wouldn’t be a Personal Edition of SB Pro to begin with.”

Also note this comment: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/01/12/the-flare-path-hows-it-going-2/#comment-2569179
Quote from: Pulstar
As for SB, it takes forever to do anything with their archaic engine. I’ve played tank games (minus the penetration simulation of course) that look miles better made by individuals not teams.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on March 14, 2018, 09:32:24 AM
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/01/12/the-flare-path-hows-it-going-2/
This is from January. And who are we to believe, Ssnake when he says in the 4.023 release notes "the next update, currently scheduled for July 2017" (https://www.esimgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/SBProPE_4-023_RN-1.pdf), or Ssnake when says that "I’m not entirely sure when we will find the time for another attempt to release the 4.1 version with the high-res terrain engine"?
Quote from: Ssnake


I could explain in depth (and bore everyone to death in the process) why the terrain engine delays happened. At the end of the day it was a combination of underestimating the cascading effect of changing one fundamental design parameter – increasing the ground resolution by a factor of 512 – and the desire of our users to see established workflows maintained (like last-minute changes on a map when designing a scenario). This was perfectly valid of course but difficult to implement when inflated file sizes meet rural low-bandwidth internet connections. Not everybody lives in the city.


:lol
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 14, 2018, 03:41:53 PM
I was able to get the original screenshots from the article, the links to them as well as the down-sized previews are below. I’ve got mixed feelings about 4.1. On one hand, the lighting and grass are much improved. On the other hand, the trees look OK up close, but awful at a distance. I won’t be able to check off “Spruced-up trees (pun intended)” from my wish list yet.

https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/images/2018/01/SS_14_08_55.jpg
(https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/images/2018/01/SS_14_08_55.jpg)

https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/images/2018/01/sim200a.jpg
(https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/images/2018/01/sim200a.jpg)

https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/images//2018/01/SS_13_36_50.jpg
(https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/images//2018/01/SS_13_36_50.jpg)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on March 14, 2018, 04:49:47 PM
Hey Rinix, them there SB Pro PE 4.1 graphics ain't half-bad. The lighting and detail ... actually looks very nice to me. As for the RPSG article from which the screenshots came from,  https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/01/12/the-flare-path-hows-it-going-2/#more-507803, I didn't realize that I am considered as a "leisure customer".
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 14, 2018, 04:56:30 PM
Yeah, I already posted the link. And as I've already said, I do like the new lighting and grass.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 01, 2018, 03:56:44 AM
https://www.army-technology.com/contractors/training/esim-games/ I've posted a link to this elsewhere, but I got distracted by the other things in it that I've posted about. So it's time for me to get to posting the other images of the new terrain engine here.

(https://www.army-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/03/HRes_Terr1.jpg)
(https://www.army-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/03/XA360_CROWS_ext.jpg)
(https://www.army-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/03/CV9035-NL.jpg)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 27, 2018, 04:44:53 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12005-lets-do-some-grass/?tab=comments#comment-181405
Quote from: Ssnake
Also, 4.1 does away with the gradual (8 bit) transparency for foliage. What's more, 4.1 will bring the option to have map-specific texture sets. This is a prime example where this would be hugely beneficial.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 13, 2018, 09:40:15 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=9&tab=comments#comment-181868
Ssnake isn't making any sense. He sets up a strawman about how he doesn't think a super detailed dev blog would be a useful use of his time, yet by his own admission, he is busy using up so much time with emails about the release date. Those emails could have been prevented if Ssnake had just made a sticky post on the forum directing people to read the 4.023 release notes for a possible release date for 4.1. That doesn't require Ssnake to set up his dev blog strawman. And maybe BigBadVuk wouldn't need to ask on the forum. I'm still shocked that to this day, apparently no one on the Steel Beasts forum has read the 4.023 release notes.
Quote from: Ssnake
We're definitely working on it. The question is, what kind of an information policy works best. We try to be as open and up-front as we can about things, but there are limits as to how much actually makes sense to disclose. Sure, I guess we could set up a developers blog where you get a daily or weekly summary of activities, but I don't think that this is a useful investment of precious time, nor will it necessarily inform you better about the situation. The daily ups and downs are statistical noise, but often enough people misread them as trends and then you're forced to combat the spreading of rumors and disinformation.

To name an example, someone here in the forum once asked in October, maybe even in this thread, about "Steel Beasts 5.0".

I never mentioned it, for the simple reason that it doesn't exist, not even as a concept. To this day I still have to answer emails inquiring about its release date, and what the features will be. This simply absorbs so much time, I'm not keen on having more of that. That's why I usually keep my mouth shut. There are occasions - like when Rock Paper Shotgun asked about a statement (in the cotext of asking a lot of other developers at the same time), so I gave them my assessment of the situation which wasn't fundamentally different from what I wrote here in the forum, plus a handful of nice-looking screenshots.

Today, I saw for the first time an earthmover digging an emplacement at runtime.

In about 17 hours we'll be demonstrating it live at the annual Steel Beasts Conference for our uniformed customers. Then ITEC week is on, and we'll be back home for the weekend to do the laundry and catching up on emails, and resuming the blood work of bug killing.

I've mentioned it before on a couple of occasions, but I guess it deserves repetition. Release dates for the Personal Edition depend on a work schedule that we set well in advance. Releasing a PE version is "a work package" just like "creating a playable T-72" is "a work package". It means to committ more than 50% of the entire team's work capacity for more than four months towards that single goal. If, for whatever reason, this window of opportunity is missed, you can't just extend that deadline. Other jobs are waiting, and with them come contractual obligations. Only once that we have fulfilled our obligations can we think of setting up another period devoted to a PE release.
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=9&tab=comments#comment-181871
Quote from: Ssnake
No, the earth was shattered by that VBIED leaving a crater.

Kev2go has an interesting point regarding Eagle Dynamics, but he gets the overdue time wrong: it's 2 years, not 3 years:
Quote from: Kev2go
NO actually. dont recall any content being promised in 2 weeks by ED and being overdue by 3 years.

ED doesnt give exact dates either, only "end of the month (or season) deadlines" if content is deemed far along to be sent to Pre purchase status and generally it is has been thus far to such rough deadlines.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on May 13, 2018, 09:54:15 PM
When you take $40 (for the update) from customers with the terrain update as a main feature, you are responsible to the customers. Saying you cannot deliver to the PE customers due to other deadlines is kind of  :Wag finger

At this point I just accept that Esims makes promises they cannot deliver. I enjoy other sims.  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 13, 2018, 11:48:14 PM
When you take $40 (for the update) from customers with the terrain update as a main feature, you are responsible to the customers. Saying you cannot deliver to the PE customers due to other deadlines is kind of  :Wag finger

At this point I just accept that Esims makes promises they cannot deliver. I enjoy other sims.  :thumbsup
Ssnake has said that the new terrain engine will be free (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-174851). But considering that the new terrain engine had to be delayed and carried over to 4.1, I don't think he'll keep his word. I know he's also said that "A contract is a contract is a contract, period. (If I promise to the general public that we will deliver a new terrain engine, free of charge, to all customers of the 4.0 version, that actually is a contract too; it's just that there's no deadline tied to it (and no late delivery penalty payment).)" (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=7&tab=comments#comment-176255) But I still don't think he'll keep his word.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 18, 2018, 06:54:30 PM
FSKRipper has a correction to Kev2go, sorry I didn't post this before: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=9&tab=comments#comment-181914
Quote from: FSKRipper
Quote from: Kev2go
NO actually. dont recall any content being promised in 2 weeks by ED and being overdue by 3 years.
If you would think twice you would remember the famous Nevada terrain which should be released short after the A-10C standalone...
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 18, 2018, 11:38:11 PM
Kev2go responds to the above: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=9&tab=comments#comment-182009
Quote from: Kev2go
IF you would think twice remember that They never said 2 weeks.... And they "delayed" it for good reason. To Upgrade the Game engine  which would have been far more overdue if they opted to do it later( which was paid off TBH despite the long development time. look at 1.5/2.0 and the recent 2.5  Merge release). and started Nevada map from scratch in a  much more Hi res Model and much more representative of Vegas


Something you seem to forget. quite a selective memory. But then again this is why ED has stopped promsing anything and not sharing as much with regards to development process,  people like you who complain any time a perceived deadline is missed ( again there wasnt a specfic release date noted anyhow)

He also responds to Ssnake's long post: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=9&tab=comments#comment-182010
Quote from: Kev2go
Its alright I understand not giving deadlines.  Sadly like the aforementioned ED example some people  will mercilessly complain any time a "perceived" deadline is missed, Hold that grudge against a "perceived broken promise"  even If there was a good explanation for why new content isnt released yet. SUch people will continue to bring up  as Ad hominum  argument for forum discussions for other content that is announced for development.

ON the other hand some community memberss will complain if there is no transparency or News  of progress re Development Cycle. So really you cant win :/

Guess you have to go for something in between. Personally i appreciate you taking the time to explain things and reassuring us things are being worked on.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 20, 2018, 06:40:55 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.org/showthread.php?8338-Neue-Gel%E4nde-Engine&p=58692&viewfull=1#post58692
Translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
All in all, I am actually quite satisfied with the current situation. However, we want to bring the frame rates to the level of version 3.x, and we still have to do a "correct" beta test. The first one will be tackled in the coming months. When we find the time to do a beta test is still unclear. Beta testing binds a significant portion of programmers and is thus in direct competition with orders for which we make contractual commitments. Naturally, such works have priority. In this respect, beta testing depends on the order situation, which is very difficult to predict.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on May 20, 2018, 07:02:23 PM
 :lol
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 21, 2018, 10:10:27 PM
Grenny has posted preview screenshots:
New Fennek variants and Kodiak AEV: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12195-itec-2018/?tab=comments#comment-182056
Kodiak AEV can now dig a trench: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12195-itec-2018/?tab=comments#comment-182057

Grenny's answers to some questions: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12195-itec-2018/?tab=comments#comment-182059
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 21, 2018, 10:54:53 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12195-itec-2018/?tab=comments#comment-182060
Quote from: Ssnake
We're currently soliciting our customers for "earthworks profiles" that they want, and the amount of time that it should take to build them in medium-hard soil. Then we'll use that as a base figure, scale it with the ground hardness, and finally add a "speed-up scaling factor" that will allow the mission designer on a case-by-case basis to use non-realistic times to create these constructions.

After all, there's several roles for Steel Beasts in training - as a constructive simulation you want this to be realistic ... in pretty much any other case you don't.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lusik on May 21, 2018, 11:02:25 PM
It's good to see something new coming in addition the new terrain, although we usually use vehicles that have been in SB for ages.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 02, 2018, 02:39:02 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10632-everything-leclerc/?page=12&tab=comments#comment-182428
Some interior images of DarkLabor's Leclerc model. I don't know if this is for a playable Leclerc, though the same person who is posting this posted that we were going to get a playable Leclerc "in the "next" update" (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/4546-steel-beasts-content-wish-list/?page=173#comment-157516) and Ssnake never contradicted him.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 06, 2018, 05:23:49 PM
eSim Games has remodeled its website. It's a definite improvement, though they still have some things to fix, such as the downloads page only displaying "Forbidden", this link not leading anywhere (http://www.esimgames.com/about/#http://www.esimgames.com/order-sb-pro/), and the "Get SB Professional 4.0" button here (http://www.esimgames.com/steel-beasts-pro/) not working.

New system requirements are here: http://www.esimgames.com/steel-beasts-pro/
You can compare them with the old requirements here: https://web.archive.org/web/20171005131729/http://www.esimgames.com:80/?page_id=841
The recommended specs for Steel Beasts Pro PE have changed from "(DirectX9 compatible card (with Shader Model 3.0 or higher))" to a Geforce 10 series. The minimum specs for Steel Beasts Pro have changed the "Nvidia GeForce GTX 760+ Class" part to "NVIDIA GeForce GTX 7+". The recommended specs for Steel Beasts Pro have changed from "(DirectX 11.0 compatible card (with Shader Model 3.0 or higher))" to a Geforce GTX 1080.

The site also includes some new preview screenshots of Steel Beasts 4.1:
(http://wpdemo.esimgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/SB264-2018-02-27-23-58-15-813copy.png)(http://wpdemo.esimgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/SB264-2018-02-27-23-54-44-769copy.png)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on June 06, 2018, 05:29:08 PM
Tried the Downloads page. Verboten.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 06, 2018, 08:08:27 PM
This link on the home page (http://www.esimgames.com/order-sb-pro/) just takes me back to the home page. But this ordering link in the site's menu bar does work: http://www.esimgames.com/test-order-page/
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 08, 2018, 01:31:01 AM
The downloads page in the menu bar now works, though the link to it at the bottom of the page doesn't work. The ordering link on the home page has been fixed. The other links have not been fixed.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 08, 2018, 02:48:14 AM
Also, the new trees look better than the last screenshots we've seen of them. I think I'll be able to check "Spruced-up trees (pun intended)" from my Steel Beasts wish list, but I'll wait for Steel Beasts 4.1 to be released before I do that.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 13, 2018, 08:30:25 PM
While we're on the subject of the new website, they've got a brief post about the Spanish mech brigade video, with messed up fonts: http://www.esimgames.com/?p=2178 Oh, and this: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11577-mugs-posters-mousepads-magnets/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-182737 CafePress is doing a promotion for 25% off until June 30, so if you want to get some eSim Games merchandise, now is a good time to do so. Never mind, see this: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11577-mugs-posters-mousepads-magnets/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-182804
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 13, 2018, 09:58:57 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=10&tab=comments#comment-182778
Quote from: Ssnake
The earthmover demo as such isn't very spectacular, except for the fact that it illustrates what the new engine can do. You set a vehicle emplacement just like you know it from the construction of concertina wire obstacles right now, then you "activate" it for construction, and an earthmoving-capable vehicle will move the the location, then drive back and forth while the hole gets deeper and deeper. That's basically it.
The more interesting part is now to get the timings right so that, depending on the terrain hardness, we get variable construction times that are either realistic, or not realistic at all; even in a 90 minute TGIF session you probably don't want to wait 40 minutes for a single emplacement to be dug, even if that may be realistic. So we will then also need to think about ways to cut it down in a way that you won't have to wait forever (but at the same time we don't want people to "spam" a network session with dozens or hundreds of emplacements).

Eventually I'll make a video of it, when it looks a bit more pretty.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 19, 2018, 12:55:15 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12264-winter-snow-a-topic-with-which-im-not-familiar/?tab=comments#comment-182906
Quote from: Ssnake
Yeah, but I can see the effects in the development version. So we have the choice to reduce the effect of bumpiness and thus limit what we can do visually, or to go to the full extent of what the render engine can do and then live with scenarios that are visually inconsistent. I'm leaning towards the latter. At least there's a clearly visible cue now that something must be done (and it's obvious that it's bumpiness related).
It's similar BTW with maps that aren't properly georeferenced. SB now applies a default coordinate (R'lyeh) which is as far off from human civilization as we could find on this planet, so that hopefully the odd time zone and the southern night sky are a clear indicator that something is off (except for Kiwis, Aussies, and those in southern Africa and South America where the only cue is the -9hr time zone)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 07, 2018, 05:22:35 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.org/showthread.php?8457-Upgrade-oder-Neuigkeiten
The quotes are using Google Translate. Ssnake mentions APSs and improved infantry pathfinding as new features that they are working on. His statement that "There will be an upgrade (but not yet in the near future)" is concerning, if it is referring to 4.1 and the new terrain engine.
Quote from: Kettenfan
Hello everybody,

I wanted to ask if there will be an upgrade in the near future or if there will be one ???

And what else is there to do in the future with vehicles or off-road facilities in buildings and streets?

MKG
Christian
Quote from: Ssnake
1. There will be an upgrade (but not yet in the near future)
2. The topics we are working on are
+ Better infantry behavior, especially in built-up terrain
+ High-resolution terrain (= you can finally see the terrain ripples)
+ Dynamic terrain (= you can create pushed positions at runtime (but that takes time of course))
+ New vehicles
+ Better model for HE ammunition, mines, artillery, fragmentation (but that could take a little longer)
+ Distance-active protection systems
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 08, 2018, 07:27:24 PM
Update: Actually, Ssnake mentioned improved infantry pathfinding back in 2017, this is using Google Translate: https://www.steelbeasts.org/showthread.php?8338-Neue-Gel%E4nde-Engine&p=58365&viewfull=1#post58365
Quote from: Ssnake
As soon as I have news updates, I will also announce them. Version 4.1 combines not only the new terrain engine, but also major changes (improvements, I hope) in the infantry AI, especially in urban terrain. These changes could not be tested for a long time because they were in the code branch of the new terrain engine. Since this testable, of course, the infantry is also looked at. Naturally, mistakes have crept in, which we are now gradually fumigating. Due to other circumstances, however, it has unfortunately come to collisions with deadlines for other projects, which we must treat with priority. After all, just about half of our programmers are still working on the PE version at the moment.

Also in 2017, Ssnake gave a guide on how to handle maps when 4.1 and the new terrain engine come out, this is also using Google Translate: https://www.steelbeasts.org/showthread.php?8338-Neue-Gel%E4nde-Engine&p=58380&viewfull=1#post58380
Quote from: Ssnake
Yes. Keeping user data is one of the highest bids in Steel Beasts development.
Of course, there are a number of cases to consider:

The default case should be the conversion from a TER file (which is only useful when combined with an HGT file). There is a conversion option in the terrain editor.
If you have several TER files to a common HGT file, you should consider first to convert only the HGT card and then save the various TERs as "Delta Maps", which may save a lot of hard disk space.

If neither TER nor HGT files are available, you can still convert the terrain data embedded in a scenario. Whether this makes sense, must be decided in each individual case.


In general, the terrain data will be combined in a common folder (with subfolders). It therefore makes sense to distribute the entire folder as a ZIP / RAR file in the future. Advantages of this solution:
- Simplified data handling for the less experienced user.
- Folders can be renamed, the contained cards have a unique ID
- Geospecific textures can be stored in the subfolders. So you do not have to juggle mods for buildings / trees and so on
- Each folder contains a base map and, if applicable, associated "Delta Maps" in which the difference to the base map is stored.

On the one hand, this makes it possible to compress the map data extremely efficiently (saves hard disk space) and still keep it editable with little effort. However, once a card is "published", it can never be changed (!). However, you can save changes as Delta Maps again. Both delta maps and base maps can be either "published" or "in progress". ONLY on "published" maps (!) You can play outside the scenario editor test mode.

The idea is that all players in a multiplayer session have already installed at least the published base map. As usual, the host can then distribute the scenario to everyone at the beginning of the session and, if necessary, the (small) delta map that may be required for the scenario.



That would be about the essential changes.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 19, 2018, 04:54:42 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php?title=Megaforce
Note the file name: Megaforce-4128b. In this naming format which is frequently used for missions in the TGIF weekly event, the number indicates the version number of Steel Beasts that the scenario was designed in. So if this is not a typo, then the next version of Steel Beasts will be some number higher than 4.128.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 05, 2018, 01:22:53 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=10&tab=comments#comment-184008
All this time, I had a bad feeling about the silence from eSim Games. That bad feeling just got vindicated. This means that the new terrain engine will be more than 2 years overdue:
Quote from: Ssnake
I say this with all possible caution, but the next window of opportunity for a public release of a major new update appears to be around the end of Q1, 2019.

 
 

 

And with these words I probably jinxed it.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on August 05, 2018, 01:36:14 PM

All this time, I had a bad feeling about the silence from eSim Games. That bad feeling just got vindicated. This means that the new terrain engine will be more than 2 years overdue:




(https://memeguy.com/photos/images/when-my-girlfriend-confessed-to-me-that-she-kissed-another-guy-but-i-had-also-drunkenly-kissed-anot--55529.gif)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Oleg on August 05, 2018, 06:38:57 PM
I hope in the first quarter will be a complete update, not just a new land.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 05, 2018, 07:22:12 PM
I hope in the first quarter will be a complete update, not just a new land.
Yes, it will be a complete update. The new terrain engine was supposed to be delivered with 4.0, but it will come with new vehicles, dynamic terrain (craters and earthmoving), new grass and trees, and new lighting.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on August 06, 2018, 05:31:46 PM
And the Steel Beasts "community" is happy to let this happen: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=10&tab=comments#comment-184026
Quote from: Koen
Still it’s good news.
Tx
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 13, 2018, 03:05:33 AM
At time index 0:25:24, Gibson (under his YouTube name) says that eSim Games is overhauling most of the 3D models:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVaZprtFTHQ
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 23, 2018, 03:57:03 PM
In the comments for the 4.1 terrain preview video, Ssnake has made these comments. They don't say anything new about 4.1, and are in denial that there is any threat. All Ssnake does is repeat the same old canard about Steel Beasts' procedural simulation, which any competitor can duplicate if they put their minds to it. Keep in mind that these comments are 4 months old:
Quote from: Ssnake
I'm fairly confident that on a modern multiprocessor CPU the performance drop in terms of framerate will be negligible. However, there's no way around the inflation of map sizes, which in turn has forced us to redesign elements of the user interface and the file handling in general - like the fact that we need to stream the terrain now, or the introduction of "map packages" that can only be used in network sessions if they are protected from further editing (you may however create maps that are based on the original and which consume considerably less disk space).

Quote from: Ssnake
While I think that the YouTube comments section is fundamentally unsuitable for in-depth discussions, I don't want to let it go unanswered. In short, I just came back from this year's ITEC and saw SB Pro seen by our direct competitors are the technology leader when it comes to those elements that are most relevant for realism of procedures, and realistic outcomes. I will readily admit that other software has flashier graphics. But too many people are fixated on technology when they should ask first what's relevant for training. This results in a misdirection of development priorities. Now, when it comes to "games" specifically, that's a different case of course. But games are developed with a two to four year development horizon, and often enough completely from scratch. We are somewhat burdened with legacy code that isn't easy to shake, but at the same time two decades of uninterrupted development and refinement also offer unique advantages when it comes to the depth and breadth of the underlying simulation capabilities. :)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 26, 2018, 02:50:35 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-184814
Interestingly, Ssnake says that the next version of Steel Beasts will be between 4.133 and 4.500. This means that my previous speculation on the then current version number (http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,3441.msg31203.html#msg31203) was correct. Unfortunately, it's another disappointing post. After promising three (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10355-sb-pro-pe-40-discussion-thread/?page=63&tab=comments#comment-154364) separate (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11128-did-i-just-screw-up/?tab=comments#comment-165530) times (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-174851) that we were going to to get the new terrain engine free, Ssnake has broken that promise and we'll have to pay to get it along with the rest of the next major release. Considering what Ssnake has said in the past (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=7&tab=comments#comment-176255), he's breached a contract with the civilian enthusiast market.
Quote from: Ssnake
The version will be called 4.x (whatever "x" may turn out to be at the time, somewhere between "133" and "500"), not 5.0.

Yes, it will be an upgrade. It is undecided at this point how much we're going to charge for it. The exact release date is undecided. Once that we know, we will discount the price of the currently sold version 4.0 by a similar amount so that there is no deterrence to buy early.

Yes, if you buy it today, you will end up paying marginally more, but we have to draw the line somewhere.

The only reaction so far says it all:
Quote from: inexus
I paid for the latest version as the landscape upgrade was supposed to be included in it.

Now I have to pay again to get what I already paid for?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on September 26, 2018, 03:17:05 AM
Quote from: Ssnake
Yes, it will be an upgrade. It is undecided at this point how much we're going to charge for it.

Really?

What about the people who purchased the last update because it was to include the terrain update?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cougar11 on September 26, 2018, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: Ssnake
Yes, it will be an upgrade. It is undecided at this point how much we're going to charge for it.

Really?

What about the people who purchased the last update because it was to include the terrain update?
Yes. What about those people?? This is a large factor in why I did not reinstall SB on my system when it went down. Really don't like the people over there that use their communication skills, the liers, and failed promises just to name a few. They can keep my money for the version that was suppose to have the terrain on it. I won't be buying it again.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 26, 2018, 03:44:57 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-184820
Grenny misses the points, which are that 4.0 was expected to have the new terrain engine, and that Ssnake later promised us three separate times that it would be added for free. Sure, we already know that the next major release will have a lot more than just the new terrain engine, but that doesn't change what I said.
Quote from: Grenny
If 4.0 was only bought for the new-terrain, then this can be seen as a letdown i suppose?
Much happened in the last year(s), the next upgrade will include a ton more then the new terrain.

inexus isn't buying it from Grenny, but at least Gibson's response is reasonable:
Quote from: inexus
It is an odd move to reduce the price of the current v4 to entice people to buy the new version coming up. That is honestly just completely ignoring people who paid full price already.

The price should be reduced on the new release for existing v4 customers to compensate us.
Quote from: Gibsonm
Usually the idea is so that people pay no more.

If you buy it say a month prior to the upgrade it might be US$100 (number used just for simplicity - I have no idea if that is the "right" amount).

Then the upgrade is released for say US$25 (again an arbitrary figure).

Therefore you'd pay: $100 + $25 = $125

Someone who didn't own a previous copy and just bought the new one would also pay $125.

The underlying approach being along the lines of "there is an upgrade coming so we'll discount the purchase price so you are no worse off".

The alternative is a scenario where someone buys it the days before release for $125 and then is required to pay $25 for the upgrade anyway.

Those people could rightly complain that they have paid $150 compared to someone who bought the "new" version a day later for $125.

Bond_Villain is wrong. Not buying the next major release will lock inexus out of multiplayer, making that decision completely impractical:
Quote from: Bond_Villain
Dont worry, its not compulsory- you dont have to buy it  if you think the price is unreasonable or unfair or whatever.

At least Red2112 is asking about whether the new terrain engine was promised as free:
Quote from: Red2112
Wasen´t the new terrain engine to be (free) included with version 4 later on when it would be finished?  For those who bought version 4 of course...
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 26, 2018, 04:12:59 PM
Ssnake gives his explanation: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-184828
Quote from: Ssnake
Yes, that was the plan. And we had every intent of fulfilling it. But first we discovered at only a relatively late stage that we had to redesign large parts of the file handling, which we expected to take six months (it was more like a year, as it turned out). This in turn made us miss a window of opportunity where we could have released it. After that point we had a number of contractual obligations to fulfill which absorbed so much of our capacity that we couldn't have managed a simultaneous release of a PE update.
As a result of the number of development contracts that we had to deliver in the meantime, and the ongoing general development process, so many changes have accumulated that we can no longer separate the high resolution terrain from all the other feature updates that are interwoven with the terrain.

Rest assured, we will calculate the price for the upgrade by considering all feature improvements except for the high res terrain to make up for this. At the end of the day, Q1/2019 is already two and a half years after the release of 4.0, and our goal is to release a major upgrade every 18...24 months. So, an upgrade is overdue.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on September 26, 2018, 04:17:44 PM
Ssnake gives his explanation: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=11&

Rest assured, we will calculate the price for the upgrade by considering all feature improvements except for the high res terrain to make up for this. At the end of the day, Q1/2019 is already two and a half years after the release of 4.0, and our goal is to release a major upgrade every 18...24 months. So, an upgrade is overdue.
[/quote]

Again. What about the people who purchsed the original update because of the terrain upgrade? Now they have to purchase the new upgrade in order to get what they were originally promised.

This is starting to look like a big mess.

I understand that delays etc can happen but the people who originally purchased for the terrain are being penalised. The product is NOT as advertised  :Wag finger

Geez  :thumbdown

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 26, 2018, 04:32:29 PM
Again. What about the people who purchsed the original update because of the terrain upgrade? Now they have to purchase the new upgrade in order to get what they were originally promised.

This is starting to look like a big mess.

I understand that delays etc can happen but the people who originally purchased for the terrain are being penalised. The product is NOT as advertised  :Wag finger

Geez  :thumbdown
Yep, and on top of that, the "At least one more free update" (http://www.esimgames.com/?p=2169) has still not been mentioned.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 26, 2018, 04:59:18 PM
Other than inexus, the Steel Beasts "community" is happy to let this happen: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-184829
Quote from: Red2112
Thank you Ssnake. Fully understandable and I appreciate your detailed explanation, that´s very kind of you in doing so.  Hope this helps others understand the change in plans aswell.  Will just wait for the new year to move in to a new "garden" :) <S>
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on September 27, 2018, 12:07:57 AM
Rinix. Did you expect any different?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on September 27, 2018, 12:58:22 AM
Rinix. Did you expect any different?
Not really.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 09, 2018, 08:09:08 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11147-ugv-and-uav-deployment/?tab=comments#comment-185018
This exchange pretty much confirms that we're going to have to wait until the next major version for an already completed bug fix. This means that we can forget about "At least one more free update".

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-185019
Quote from: Haferja
Quote from: inexus
I paid for the latest version as the landscape upgrade was supposed to be included in it.

Now I have to pay again to get what I already paid for?
Just my statement:

This was the main reason for me aswell. Then i waited, waited and waited..

I know/read the reasons for that. Nevertheless i`m disappointed.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on October 10, 2018, 12:02:21 AM
I understand where Inexus is coming from.

What about the people who only purchased because of the terrain? They will have to pay more now.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 10, 2018, 04:47:24 PM
I understand where Inexus is coming from.

What about the people who only purchased because of the terrain? They will have to pay more now.
Of course, the "community" can't understand: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-185054
Quote from: BlackDeath
Did you pay 25$ just for the landscape upgrade you don't know anything about?
I didn't. I paid for the whole lot included in 4.0, that is tons of new vehicles, lot of them crewable (T-55 :x), and lot of other cool new features! Check out the release notes, that is what you paid for!
http://www.steelbeasts.com/updates/SBProPE_4-0_RN.pdf
Is the landscape upgrade such a big deal to you?
The new terrain engine is not some unknown. It was a major promised feature of 4.0, which appeared prominently in multiple trailers. We know that it will be a major improvement in resolution over the 12.5 meter resolution we have now. We know that it will have delta maps for per-scenario modifications to map data. We know that it will change the file system for maps.

Quote
In the next version, you might have so much more than the landscape upgrade, well worth 25$ to me (if same price).

Just my 2 cents..
We'll also have a broken contract to deliver the new terrain engine with 4.0, because as I've pointed out before, that's exactly what has happened (http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,3441.msg32377.html#msg32377).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 11, 2018, 12:56:58 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-185060
At least there's some good news.
Quote from: Ssnake
I can certainly relate to the disappointment. At the same time I have to look at the practocalities of a rollout. The best compromise that I can offer is that the next upgrade will be reduced in price, and will contain a lot more than just the new terrain engine. We did a bit more in the last two years than to redesign the file handling. :)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on October 11, 2018, 02:45:49 PM
Some good news indeed.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 12, 2018, 04:44:55 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-185083
Quote from: Ssnake
I'm pretty certain about "similar requirements", yes.

Most of the "costs" of the new engine are already in 4.0 (that's why you have a lower frame rate than in 3.0); one of the activities we invested in was to make 4.1 perform with higher frame rates.

Thanks to Frankie for prompting this response: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-185084
Quote from: Ssnake
The final decision hasn't been made yet, so I'll refrain from going into detail until we know for certain what we're going to release, and when. At that point, following eSim traditions, there will be a near-full disclosure of new features (leaving a few extras for you to discover after purchase).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 16, 2018, 04:33:42 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=12&tab=comments#comment-185174
After some other members post about how we should be satisfied, Ssnake responds:
Quote from: Ssnake
The patch idea was floated in the immediate aftermath of the 2016 release when "we thought"(TM) that we could fix things quickly. Once that this window of opportunity (WOO) closed this no longer was a practical idea.
At some point you have too many code branches and must consolidate them. Which means to conflate the pure engine update (that you promised to deliver, for free) with all the feature updates that you've been working on after said WOO closed. So, I'm 100% guilty of being overly excited in April 2016 when I shouldn't have mentioned the new terrain, and blurting it out in public. I said it before, I'll repeat it now: I'm really, really sorry about this.
The temptation is strong to list all the other things we've been working on in the past two years, but the only way to learn from 2016 is to not tell you about it until after we're certain to have a viable new product, and that will be decided upon some time in January, February 2019.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on October 17, 2018, 01:15:26 PM
 :suckers
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 17, 2018, 03:52:12 PM
Meanwhile, the "community" got so insistent that Ssnake repeat his previous mistake that Ssnake had to flat out say "no" (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=12&tab=comments#comment-185203).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on October 23, 2018, 04:19:38 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=12&tab=comments#comment-185341
This raises the question: will any 12.5 meter resolution maps that were based on 10 meter maps be replaced with the 10 meter original maps?
Quote from: Ssnake
Well, the new terrain engine is available ... to classroom version users. I haven't published the video on the Steel Beasts Youtube channel; the video you're referring to can only be found through the news story on our homepage (I can't prevent people from posting the link elsewhere). The problem we're facing here is that the release of a PE version actually absorbs the attention of almost the entire team for almost a full quarter of a year, and we couldn't afford that break in our development routine between last October and the end of this year (that's why I keep talking about those "windows of opportunity").
Also, note that the new engine doesn't guarantee better looking terrain in any of the legacy maps and the scenarios based on them. Old maps will get the visualization of the ground's bumpiness, but otherwise must stay the same simply because the original data are of 12.5m mesh width.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 03, 2018, 12:49:42 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=12&tab=comments#comment-185506
Quote from: BigBadVuk
So, in short we were fed with crap for the past 2 years?
Right now im not even angry any more, im disappointed... im trying to find one reason to keep supporting this simulation. :(

Rest assured eSims that i will never recommend your simulation to any other YT or Twitch channel, something i did many times for the past years since like 2005.
In fact im not even sure i will give you any single cent any more...

IT is not even about the money, it is about fail to hit every single date you have mentioned since like 2016. and then unloading that to customers.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 03, 2018, 02:18:47 AM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=12&tab=comments#comment-185511
Wow. So many words just to say "I broke a contract with the community". And of course the "community" is eating it up. Cougar has already sworn that he's not buying the next update, and I won't be surprised if Beef joins him.
Quote from: Ssnake
There are things in life that I can influence, and there are others over which I have no control. A PE release costs the entire team an incredible amount of effort. This in turn limits the number of opportunities when we can actually mount the collective effort as a team to release a new version of SB Pro PE.

Everything that I have made public in the past 2 1/2 years was written in good faith and the best of intents. PE users want to be informed in advance about planned releases and what to expect in them. This forces me to make predictions about a future that I don't know. Then you hold me accountable for not knowing the future. I can't help but noticing that I find this a tad unfair.

The beta testers have been working on the new terrain engine - in its two major iterations - since March 2016, more or less non stop. You have no idea how much they tested everything, how much the new engine touches old code that needs to be adapted, the number of bugs that need to be found and fixed. Did we underestimate the scope of work? Yes.

Could all that have been avoided? Maybe, if we could afford to hire professional project managers with great expertise in software development. I know a guy who could have done that, it just would have cost us a quarter million dollars every year because these guys are a rare breed and know their market value very well. So I would have had to lay off a number of programmers to compensate for that extra expense. Would anyone have been better off that way? I don't think so. Honestly, I don't. It would have slowed down the development pace, reduced the number of new, good stuff, you might have received updates like SB Pro PE 3.3 and 3.5 instead for which we would also have charged money, and we would have told you on several occasions that we were forced to delay the release of the new engine just as well (or, we wouldn't have mentioned the new engine at all, and created the false impression that our development is stagnant).

In hindsight, I'm sorry that I announced the new terrain engine in April 2016. But that's the thing with hindsight - you know what went wrong only in retrospect. I'm pushing the team to try stuff that's really hard to do. Sometimes we fail. I'm constantly forced to make hard choices without knowing whether I'm making the right choices. At the time, I was convinced that I was doing the right thing. After July 2016 we tried our best at damage control. Then it turned out that our best efforts weren't good enough to release the revised new engine by September 2017, and beyond that point we simply couldn't find the time to halt the development work for our classroom version customers for a full quarter (because that's what it takes - the entire team working for three months on nothing else but a PE version release).
We have personnel costs in the medium-high six-digit figures every year. Somehow we must earn an equal amount of money (or better) every year just to stay in business. Sales of the Personal Edition don't remotely come near that target number, so there really isn't much choice that I have. Either the team works on new features for which we receive development money from our army customers, or we go out of business, plain and simple (hint: The new terrain engine isn't one of the things for which we get paid, we do that on our own expense).

Many of the new features that get developed on army request get entangled with the work on the new terrain engine. Beyond a certain point, separating changes in the engine from other features is no longer possible. We crossed that point some time between the beginning of this years and now. For a while we thought we could still release a free update that would roll out the new terrain, but again, we simply lacked the opportunity to put everything else on hold to do just that. Now we're at a point where this simply is no longer an option and we have to make the best of it. Which is, a new major upgrade at a reduced price.

Knowing what I know now, I'd do certain things differently. Knowing what I knew then, I would probably come to the same (wrong) conclusions. If you're telling me that you were never wrong about the future in your entire life and that you made a lot of meaningful predictions about complex situations in dynamic conditions, I have a project manager's job to offer (if you're willing to work for an amount that doesn't force me to lay off anyone else in the team).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 03, 2018, 06:19:35 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=12&tab=comments#comment-185524
Ssnake posted this right after Apocalypse asked about "destructive terrain". Does this mean that we won't be getting dynamic terrain with the next major version of Steel Beasts?
Quote from: Ssnake
This isn't the droid you're looking for. Move along.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on November 03, 2018, 06:56:16 PM
We all know how this will go..... :punishment
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on November 18, 2018, 04:51:30 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12433-any-new-crewable-content-since-2016/?tab=comments#comment-185803
Ssnake responds to a topic about future crewable vehicles to say that the next major version of Steel Beasts will have "some new stuff". This implies that we will get new crewable vehicles in the next major version of Steel Beasts.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on December 30, 2018, 01:48:21 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12478-has-steel-beasts-died/
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10258-mouse-pointer-missing-in-4k-uhd-resolution/?tab=comments#comment-186447
Malakie is annoyed over the lack of a fix for the disappearing cursor at 4K resolution bug and the lack of updates. Ssnake responds to both posts, and covers the same ground in both of them, here's the longer post:
Quote from: Ssnake
The problem is actually quite hard to fix. We know what needs to be done, and we're taking considerable effort towards that goal. But it is a massive undertaking even if it may appear as a mere triviality. I don't want to go too much into technical details, but it's one of those problems where we know what needs to be done, it just takes a lot of time and effort to actually do it.
If Steel Beasts were to be developed from scratch right now, it would be easy to address. You would approach the whole question of a user interface in an entirely different way. 25 years ago we were young and naive and never expected to be working on this for any longer than maybe five years. But as it turned out SB Pro is of a much bigger scope than initially expected, and that means we need to remove a lot of old code that is blocking the path towards a modern graphical user interface. But that old code is there for a reason. You can't just delete it. It needs rewriting. And you want to rewrite it in a way that introduces fewer bugs than it replaces.

I can but ask for patience here. Also, we're working on other things, but these are not really distractions that prevent us from modernizing the GUI, they run in parallel. All of which must create the tarther terrible impression that we're not doing anything about it at all. I can assure you, this is not the case.
Maybe I can illustrate it like this: If you want to build a new house, you need to secure the bank loan, purchase land, appoint an architect, choose a contractor to build it (or assemble all the raw materials if you want to do it yourself), and while you're very busy preparing all this, seemingly nothing happens at the construction site. All the work is happening elsewhere.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on February 20, 2019, 04:40:09 AM
Well, there are less than six weeks to go until the end of Q1 2019. Considering that Ssnake has said that "The full feature disclosure will usually begin six to eight weeks prior to the anticipated release date" (https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10007-2016-payware-upgrade/#comment-145064) we can conclude that the next major release of Steel Beasts has been delayed yet again. :(
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on February 27, 2019, 04:09:02 PM
https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8578-vorstellung-vom-hacket%C3%A4uer/?postID=59073#post59073
Translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
To 4.1 (or which version number we use then), I'll say something in due course (small note at this point: the frame rates are better compared to 4.0). I referred to 4.0 because we tested it systematically in 2016.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 01, 2019, 03:20:03 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12559-release-roadmap-for-pe-41/?tab=comments#comment-187810
So we are looking at a delay of 1 to 3 months.
Quote from: Ssnake
We hope to close the beta test in Q1, so, since the second quarter technically starts with April 1st, the release won't happen before that. But we may be forced to delay it until June for the following reasons:
  • ITEC exhibition in May; this requires preparation time, then most of the team is away for a week, and there's stuff to do immediately after the show. Therefore, if we can't push it out in early April, it'll have to wait until June.
  • Manual preparation; we want to make a new print run for the manual, but of course as long as there are changes made to the user interface we also have to update the manual. Once that the time for last minute changes of the content is over it's time to send it to the printer. But how many? I'm thinking of setting up our web shop to accept preorders for it.
  • Terrain data; this one is a big issue. We want to ship the next version with as many legacy maps converted to the new format as possible. We know that converted legacy maps are a bit larger than the original maps, but HOW MUCH larger is somewhat difficult to predict since it depends a lot on the amount of changes that would be made in the conversion process, and how they affect the data compression ratio (uncompressed maps are unacceptably large).
Now, the total size of all the maps is unknown. But a number of questions hinge on them. First of all, we have decided to split the Steel Beasts installer from the map data installation, so that if we push future updates for Steel Beasts you don't have to download the maps again and again. Next, we're preparing a map server to replace the current forum's map download area. Who knows, maybe one day we extend that to scenarios, and or game sessions. The point is, if you want to open a scenario for which you don't have the map, Steel Beasts will recognize that and then connect to a map server and query the map from that location, then add the map to a download queue that will run automatically in the background. Which is all very nifty, but not everybody is on a broadband internet connection, and if many people are requesting a lot of map data at the same time the servers may be unable to serve in a timely fashion.
So, some people may prefer to have the map installer delivered on physical media. But the choice of medium depends a lot on the total size of the installer, so this is at the moment the biggest unknown. Do we put everything on two DVDs? Do we need five? Ten? Should we rather ship a USB stick, or an SD card? How many will we need? (So, I'm thinking of setting up our web shop to take preorders.)

But before I can update the web shop, I also want to offer bundles with Steel Beasts installer (DVD? or is there enough space left on that USB stick?), map installer, and the printed manual ... plus upgrade license, or new license, or an upgrade option for people that never updated past version 2.6. That's a lot of combinations, maybe fewer is better. But in any case, I can offer such bundles only once that I know what needs to be produced, and that largely hinges on the map installer.

As soon as I have answers to all of this I'll start making announcements.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 01, 2019, 11:30:51 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12560-roadmap/?tab=comments#comment-187819
Quote from: Ssnake
I would really like to wait posting stuff until things are ready. As long as there are changes being made to the lighting - just recently there was a rather drastic improvement to the tree shader code - well, let's just say that screenshots take a life on their own on the internet as they get passed around without context.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 02, 2019, 05:23:33 PM
https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8610-gel%C3%A4ndedaten-in-version-4-1/
All of these posts are translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
Let me quote from our new manual. In the further course of the (hopefully resulting) discussion, I will go into the implications of these changes:

Quote from: Ssnake
Hmmmmm ... then without quote tag:


Basic concepts

Steel Beasts creates the virtual 3D environment based on map data stored in so-called terrain packages as of version 4.1. A site package contains all the data needed to create a map and is stored in a single directory that can be easily copied using Windows Explorer or shared over the Internet or on USB sticks. More information about storing site packages can be found in Chapter 2, Installation and Setup.
There are two types of terrain packages: base packages and delta packages. Delta packages always belong to a specific base package and contain only the changes to the base package. Thus, minor changes for a scenario can be made quite easily, without changing the (usually extensive) base map itself. The number of delta packets to a base packet is not limited. Delta packets are stored in subdirectories of the respective base packets.

Note: There are no delta packages of delta packages. Such a construct would result in an undesirable cascade of changes to previous changes. Changes to delta packages are always saved as new delta packages (or, if the creator so wishes, as a new base package).

Steel Beasts uses two different categories of terrain packages: Completed maps and maps in progress. Surprisingly, only cards in progress can still be modified (which, among other things, means that they are stored uncompressed for faster read and write access, so they often require a lot of hard disk space.) Once the terrain developer has finished working on his Card, he should convert it with the option Finish processing in the file menu. This saves this card in a read-only and compressed state. Further changes to the card will be saved as a delta package in the future. Only completed cards can serve as the basis for an exercise. In the Scenario Editor, however, maps in progress can be used for testing purposes (so that the site editor can assess his work.)

Older versions of Steel Beasts (up to 4.0) use a different file format: There are elevation profile maps that contain information about ground level, and terrain maps that show the properties of the terrain such as soil type, vegetation, locations of buildings, roads, and other stationary objects. The combination of a height map and a terrain map file gives the complete description of the virtual battlefield. These map data from old scenarios can be converted to new terrain maps in version 4.1 using Create Terrain Package (Wizard). This wizard is described in more detail later in this chapter.

High-quality maps are important for a clean running simulation of high simulation quality, which meets with the acceptance of the users. If possible, always use cards of good, proven quality. In some cases, changes to existing maps may be needed to improve a scenario or to help achieve an educational goal. Steel Beasts lets you edit maps in the Terrain Editor.


Create terrain package (assistant)

There are two ways to create new terrain packs using the Terrain Editor: On the one hand, it is possible to create a new map from scratch (to which elevation and terrain data must then be added), or the map can be edited manually or elevation and terrain data in certain exchange formats.) It is also possible to convert a map of an old version of Steel Beasts. It is even possible to create a terrain package from a map embedded in a scenario. More details can be found in chapter 7, CREATING A SCENARIO.

Both approaches use the wizard to create a terrain package. In this wizard, the user must enter the card name, its creator and a copyright notice. It also includes a larger text box for a brief description. A simulation date can be specified below the description (This feature is currently not in use, but may later be used to advise scenario developers using the map about appropriate troop organization and camouflage schemes give.)

The lower half of the window contains information about the map's coordinates, their size, projection, UTM zone, and terrain type used. When converting existing maps, some of this information may not change because they depend on existing data (for example, you can not change the size of a map when you convert an old map).

Among these options, Steel Beasts shows how big the file would be if it were saved as a map in progress (either low or high resolution), and how much space is left on the computer.

Attention: If the Next button is greyed out, the card name probably contains invalid characters (in card names only alphanumeric characters and a few special characters are allowed) .-.
Convert maps of old versions
Older versions of Steel Beasts (up to 4.0) store maps in various files and formats: height information is in files with the extension .hgt / .raw, whereas terrain data is in .ter files. The former contain data about the terrain profile, while the latter (which always refer to a specific height file) contain information about buildings, terrain types and similar things. All this is further complicated by the fact that terrain data is always embedded, elevation data, on the other hand, only on request in a scenario file (before version 4.1). This requires several variations on how terrain data must be extracted from maps of old versions or converted to create a terrain package.

· Conversion of a height map file
· Conversion of a terrain map file - this will also convert the height file to this map
· Extraction of the map from a scenario

In principle, any of these operations can be used to create a new base package. However, since the number of elevation maps used for maps of old versions has been relatively limited, and the terrain package is usually much larger than the map of the old version, it may be useful to use a common base package (for one certain elevation file) and terrain packages for specific terrain maps or scenarios as delta packages based on that package.

The Generate Terrain Package wizard supports this approach. When instructed to convert a TER file, it searches the list of already existing (closed) base packages. If he notices that one of these packages has been created on the basis of the same elevation map file, he offers the user not only the creation of a new base package but also the creation of a delta package to the existing base map.

If no existing base package is found, the application will suggest to the user to create such a package by selecting the "Automatically create an empty completed base card" option. This is the normal case and is strongly recommended. It will now create a delta packet with all the information from the TER file in addition to a new base package containing only the elevation information. The base package can be used immediately for other terrain packages, while the delta package can be further edited by the user.

Quote from: Ssnake
What does that mean?

First of all, we aim to ship all the HGT and TER data included in previous versions of SB Pro to the start of Version 4.1. Old scenarios will then identify the correct site package during loading and exchange it at runtime. Of course, it is recommended to load old scenarios in the new editor in the medium term and save them again, as this will release the ballast of outdated terrain data and shrink the scenario file sizes to a pre-3.0 level.

There are of course maps like Bergen-Schwarmstedt-Hohne, which were created by you and which are not yet part of the official distribution. We are happy to include them if the following conditions are met:
  • Legal origin of the data. If the height data is e.g. created by DarkAngel in the SteelBeasts.com forum at your request, I see no problem. If the data was taken from a Bundeswehr DVD collection, then that's a problem.
  • The "gardener" - or, if it is a group, all gardeners - must give us your consent to use the TER file, otherwise we can not accept the file. For this purpose, a form should be completed in which the authorship of the terrain data is explained and eSim Games is acquitted of any liability claims of third parties. The form I like to give out by email on request.
In this case, we can take over the terrain data and make the installation less complicated for newcomers. In addition to the direct download we want to offer the site packages in a separate installer, namely
  • On a physical medium; it is still unclear whether this would be a USB stick, an SD card (rather not), a small stack of DVDs, a large stack of DVDs (rather not), or a stack of BluRay discs (also "rather not"). That depends heavily on how extensive the material will be, and we only know that after the conversions have been completed.
  • On a web server, so integrated with Steel Beasts, that if an unknown card were required, they would be requested directly on the server (s) and added to a download queue that runs independently of Steel Beasts in the background as well after a computer restart the download simply continues. Not only will we run such a server, you could do that as well; The server address must then enter the user in Steel Beasts, so that community-own server will be quite possible. So they do not have to be curated via a forum software but are immediately available to all players using the same server.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 02, 2019, 09:18:29 PM
My own thoughts on a physical medium:
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 03, 2019, 02:28:28 AM
https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8610-gel%C3%A4ndedaten-in-version-4-1/?postID=59084#post59084
All of these posts are translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
  • NASA data is not a problem
  • I'm in constant contact with Ulf - thanks for the clarification
This quote is being checked for possible copyright issues. Current predicted waiting time: Calculating....

More informations

Regarding the choice of media, I am quite similar view (especially BluRay, but also DVD - less and less computers have any optical drives of any kind). SD cards may not sound that great, but external readers are pretty cheap. So the question is, is a faster data transfer from a cheap SD card, for which you still have to buy a cheap reader, rather than an equally expensive USB 2.0 stick. A 3.0 or 3.1 stick will then very quickly very expensive, if the amount of data is only sufficiently large. A Fußlahmer USB 2.0 stick is ultimately not so tingling, if many gigabytes should be moved.
On the other hand, it is only a one-time transfer during installation.

Regarding the web server you should also be careful with your wishes. Terrain data is extensive, even if it's compressed, and if only enough people access the server, then traffic is coming together. Maybe we'll book something on Amazon Web Services or for the time immediately after the release, then you'll see how much traffic it generates a quarter of a year later. At any rate, it is not necessarily a runner.

https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8610-gel%C3%A4ndedaten-in-version-4-1/?postID=59087#post59087
Quote from: Ssnake
... where "fair use" is of course exactly the rubber paragraph, over which the hoster possibly enforces his interests. But of course, you can think about it, if it actually came to that. I could imagine that a full package of "off-the-shelf" terrain data might initially only cover 500 GB (ie converting what is already part of SB Pro PE plus a handful of additional cards).
Since only a few of them would be "your" cards, which would not be part of the official distribution, in practice we will probably start by talking about 50 GB or so. With 100 users a manageable data volume, which is to be transferred there.

But there is another perspective.
The internal resolution of all cards is increased by a factor of 512. That's 128,000 data points per 100km, so 16.4 billion data points for a 100x100km² map, sometimes 16bit height resolution per data point - 262 billion bit pure height data (before compression), ie 30.5 GB. How well this amount of data can be compressed depends on the data structure. LIDAR data can hardly be compromised effectively, because each data point is a true measuring point. The German states seem to be gradually adapting their legislation and in some states it is now so far that the Land Survey Offices release their data for free, including LIDAR scans. There's really something moving.

So if you still remember our video from last year - the LIDAR site of the Sann Dunes comes from the Kallemærsk Heath in Oksbøl - ​​of course it is clear that he wants terrain of this quality. And if you can get it ...? Why not?
And that in turn leads to the foreseeable inflation of terrain data sets. If you gradually replace the old elevation data with LIDAR scans, then 500 GB will quickly become 3TByte. And at the latest then that will be a problem for anyone who wants to operate non-commercially as a terrain data server. Now it's not yet time, that will certainly take years to become so many off-road packages that have such characteristics. But you should keep it in mind. Switching to high-resolution terrain has its price.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 03, 2019, 04:49:34 PM
https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8610-gel%C3%A4ndedaten-in-version-4-1/?postID=59089#post59089
Translated using Google Translate. My thoughts: A small stack of DVDs may not be possible. With dual layer DVDs, it will take 4 DVDs to fit 32 GB, and 6 DVDs to fit 50 GB. USB 3.0 and USB 3.1 sticks in 32 GB or 64 GB capacities are only a few dollars.
Quote from: Ssnake
As I said, now I expect directly rather 50 GB (maybe even 32 ...), so fits easily on a stick (possibly together with the program installation). And we certainly will not put more than a handful of really high-resolution terrain data into the installation (Sennelager would be a candidate). In that sense, the change is not the problem.
And in the long run, of course, storage media costs are expected to continue to decrease approximately exponentially.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Oleg on March 03, 2019, 05:40:23 PM
Do I understand correctly that only cards will take up from 500 GB? Is this such an optimization?  :o
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 03, 2019, 06:17:01 PM
Do I understand correctly that only cards will take up from 500 GB? Is this such an optimization?  :o
Cards = maps, it is the fault of Google Translate. I believe 500 GB refers to the maps without compression, and 32–50 GB refers to the maps after being compressed.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 07, 2019, 01:58:13 AM
https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8610-gel%C3%A4ndedaten-in-version-4-1/?postID=59096#post59096
All of these posts are translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
The terrain editor has been extended by several functions. You can raise (or lower) roads above the ground level, even with different elevations for the start and end points of a road vector line. Thus, the construction of linear ramps is possible. The width of the street shoulder and the slope angle can also be set.

Similarly, one can operate road smoothing in the transverse direction; In the process, the embankment is cut in on the slope side and filled up on the valley side. The only problem is that the automatic treatment generally gives unsatisfactory results because intersections do not have a common node, otherwise one could automatically build linear ramps from each individual node to its neighbors without changing their height.
But the road vector lines do not allow that at the moment to define branches and mergers, certainly not with different road types. We have to put in a lot of work before it works properly. In that sense, the basic technology is there; There is a lack of quality of the source data and of the meta-data structure characteristics that must first be developed before proceeding to make the road smoothing functions comfortable.

We would have liked to get ahead, but it was too much work to finish before a release. We did not expect in the summer of 2016 that we would need almost three years for the conversion work. Anyway, I would like to have come much further than we are. But some things can only be found out when they are tackled, unfortunately, all the complications are never predictable.


So now one can also treat the 1m, 3m and 6m streams as roads and lower them below the surrounding level, e.g. -2m, with minimum shoulder width and 60 ° slope angle. This then unfold even small streams obstacle effect. Problematic are the intersections with roads. Here you have to break the water course a few meters in front of and behind the intersection, before you make the lowering - or you have to repair afterwards the lowering of the road again, which is also stupid.
And of course you can sit down a street somewhere, build a ramp under it, and then clear the street afterwards. Then you have a dam. Or a sink (like the old "Ditches" in version 1.0).

A next step would be well. to define certain road profiles for roads, e.g. can automatically lead trenches in parallel. Doing so by hand would be unacceptable, it must be procedural, but in a way that does not create more problems than it eliminates old ones. And then our AI would also have to recognize and avoid small-scale soil structures with obstacle value. You see, the work is not enough.
Of course it would be better if the quality of the output data would be better. If you get LIDAR scan data in resolutions of less than 1m grid size, you can save a lot of ramp construction for the road network. But then the file size grows, cf. my introductory statement ... (small sigh).

https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8610-gel%C3%A4ndedaten-in-version-4-1/?postID=59097#post59097
Quote from: Ssnake
And another section from the manual:

Edit roads and objects

The Edit menu contains the following options for editing the properties of existing roads:
Generate bridges creates bridges for all road sections that lie on water fields. The original road section is removed and replaced by the bridge. In general, this works well, but road sections that run parallel to a river or lake shore can also be converted into bridges if they are too close.
Smooth Roads creates a road shoulder of given width (depending on the road type) for all roads on the map, and then creates an embankment, thus ensuring a horizontal alignment of the road cross-section. This operation is quite expensive, depending on the size of the map and the number of street objects. In addition, it can be expected that the slopes generated in this way will cause considerable (and therefore disturbing) changes in the height profile, especially in hilly or even mountainous regions. Instead, we recommend the minimally invasive case treatment of problematic road sections.

Select Generate bridges for selected roads (Shift + B) to create a bridge between the endpoints of two existing roads that you must have previously selected (Shift + Left Click).
Smooth Selected Roads opens a dialog (Shift + F) to set the following parameters for the selected road:
  • Max. Slope [°] determines the slope in the direction of the road
  • Max. Inclination [°] limits the inclination of a road across its course
  • Shoulder width [m] defines the maximum width of the shoulder on either side of the road (i.e., total width of the road = width of the carriageway plus 2 x shoulder shoulder width).
    In practice it has been proven not to go under 2,34m. Underlying values ​​often lead to visible faults in the carriageway area.
  • Slope angle [°] determines the slope of the slope. In reality, this angle is dependent on the surface (and the local space conditions, masonry is used if necessary). Steel Beasts limits the angles to values ​​between max. 80 ° (recommended for rocky ground, limited space, and for steep slopes) and min. 20 ° (for extremely loose and dry soils, the natural limit is around 25 °).
Most military vehicles are specified for overcoming slopes up to 60 °. So if you set a larger angle, the road embankment can develop a strong obstacle effect. On the other hand, steep slopes are helpful to avoid large-scale changes in the terrain profile, especially in the vicinity of buildings.
Leveling under selected objects opens (Ctrl + F) a dialog with the very elegant title Settings of Object-Clearance. Here, the terrain below the center of the selected building (or other object) can be raised or lowered. In addition, the width of a seam around the outer boundary of the object can be set; I. A. the minimum value of 78cm is sufficient. By deselecting the box smoothing could be leveled without leveling, which in rare exceptional cases may be less meaningless than it certainly sounds.

Increase an existing road (Shift + R) with Pick Selected Road. The starting point of the selected part of the road can be recognized by a green dot. When selecting Raise Selected Road, Steel Beasts opens the Raise / Lower Road dialog. Here you can now enter the start and end heights of the road, as well as the shoulder width and slope angle. The unmodified application raises or lowers the road at full length to the surrounding terrain, which is rare in reality except for dike construction. By contrast, the Ramp check box linearly adjusts the elevation profile from the starting point (larger, green vertex) to the end point (small, black vertex). The height of the start and end points can be entered relative to the surrounding terrain, or if the box Absolute height in, well, absolute height is selected. The values ​​for start height and end height are inserted directly in the dialog.

Restore selected roads can be used to discard changes (Ctrl + S). This function is only available as long as the original height profile is still present, e.g. after converting an HGT file. If a completed base package is saved as a new base or delta package (in progress), the road profiles changed in the original base package can no longer be put into the "original state" before they are processed.

Turning the curve smoothing on / off smoothes the course of the road (Shift + S) using a spline function.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 08, 2019, 04:06:21 AM
https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8610-gel%C3%A4ndedaten-in-version-4-1/?postID=59099#post59099
Translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
No, you can convert the old maps to the new format, then the corresponding editing options are available (for example, smoothing the terrain under buildings). The existing 12.5x12.5m² terrain is broken down into 0.78125² sub-tiles (this is the same resolution as has always been used in the pushed positions), then the elevation values ​​of these sub-tiles can be adjusted accordingly.

Then, another four times higher resolution mesh is placed over this 0.78125m grid, procedurally crumpling the surface somewhat, according to the waviness values ​​in the terrain type for the particular soil type. Scenarios that were created prior to version 4.1 and refer to old terrain files are, if possible, assigned to a converted map (unfortunately, there are so many special cases that have to be considered, that was not a pleasure to implement). If this is not possible, you can still extract the terrain data embedded in the scenario, convert it, and then reassign it to the scenario.

Generally, old cards often have the problem that the ripple (and other values ​​such as ground hardness, traction) have been set to 1.0 or 0.0. These are of course EXTREM VALUES, according to an alpine boulder field or something. That is why we will reduce the ripple by 50% for old scenarios, so that it does not become quite so brutal. Because, of course, it does not look so natural when there is maximum hillockness from the edge of the forest, but everything in the meadow in front is mirror-smooth. Arable land should generally be fairly flat, a heathland may be 25%, heavy terrain would probably be located between 30 and 60%. Wheeled vehicles should tend to avoid terrain with undulations of 40% or higher, chains maybe up to 80%, but then normally it would really be over.
The same is true of dust: 0% is practically only found in swamps in nature, 100% would be extreme desert terrain as in southern Spain, Afghanistan, etc .; 20 ... 60% would be normal for central European terrain. (Reminder: These values ​​apply to dried-up soils (!), Besides, there is still the value for wet soils, and SB Pro then averages, depending on the weather.)

The soil hardness is also set too often to 1.0. Beyond 0.95 positions and Schützenmulden are no longer pushed / dug, but would have to be blown up. Therefore, one should be careful here with the soil hardness; Soil hardness will also sometime affect the time in which a PiPz can post a position at runtime of a scenario. By then you will have to worry about this question.

Traction is also such a topic. 1.0 means: Hot race tire on warm asphalt. It is rare in nature. ;)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 30, 2019, 12:07:58 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=13&tab=comments#comment-188355
Quote from: Ssnake
I was about to write up something over the weekend but since I'm struck down with a nasty lumbago that makes me afraid of going to bed I might just as well write it now. Nothing better than making public announcements in a sleep-deprived state of agony. :|

Overally the current beta version looks quite decent and almost release worthy. But we've's busted the deadline for a release in April (or May) because we're not quite done yet (if tantalizingly close), and because of the production lead times for a new printed manual and the mentioned installer media for the map files. Even if we could fix that by Easter, a release in early May is out of the question because we're effectively shutting down the company in May so we can relocate parts of the team (including myself) to Sweden for the ITEC exhibition.
This is a very important event for us, so we need "time for ourselves" to prepare it properly (and to respond to customers afterwards). So, I'm shooting for a release in June.

Late June appears to be absolutely realistic. It gives us time to run the manual print, it allows us to collect preorders from you so we know what production size we should aim for, we might even pre-release the map data installer for those of you who want to download the bigger part of the installation in advance of the program release. That might also help to spread the peak load on the server. And in July and August, we usually are left alone by our military customers, so we can be on full alert for the wave of support cases that are inevitable after each major release. I'm pretty sure, there will be more cases than normal, simply because a few key elements (everything related to map data) will change.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on March 30, 2019, 02:12:56 AM
Been waiting for YEARS for a SB Pro PE major update....what's a few more months? Or more. Heck I can wait another full year because the military customers may have demands that will impinge on their quiet period of July-August. But after a full year more of waiting, I will quit waiting. Haha.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cougar11 on March 30, 2019, 03:10:50 PM
Been waiting for YEARS for a SB Pro PE major update....what's a few more months? Or more. Heck I can wait another full year because the military customers may have demands that will impinge on their quiet period of July-August. But after a full year more of waiting, I will quit waiting. Haha.
I quit waiting more than a year ago. I love the game when playing multiplayer on a high Sim level. This update that I paid for years ago has given me a sour taste, and idk if I will ever go back.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on March 30, 2019, 03:36:18 PM
I quit waiting more than a year ago. I love the game when playing multiplayer on a high Sim level. This update that I paid for years ago has given me a sour taste, and idk if I will ever go back.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
I don't know if this will change your mind, but there is more to 4.1 than the new terrain engine. As I mentioned a while ago in this topic, there will also be new vehicles, dynamic terrain (craters and earthmoving), new grass and trees, and new lighting (http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,3441.msg31533.html#msg31533).

Meanwhile: /topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=13&tab=comments#comment-188369
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Scapper_511
How about screen-shot worthy? :P
In due time. Some essential artwork is still in preparation.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/?page=13&tab=comments#comment-188372
Quote from: Apocalypse 31
Lets get some shots of the new infantry
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 11, 2019, 04:19:24 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11211-ui-scaling-for-uhd/?tab=comments#comment-188625
Quote from: Ssnake
There isn't much I can add here.
We're in the process of hiring a new guy specifically tasked to design the components of a new UI. But even then replacing a (literally) hand-written UI from 700,000 lines of legacy code is hard work with high development risk. It's somewhat inevitable to do it, so it will be done. But it's not something that we could or should do while we're still working on something like the new terrain which also changes everything. For the beta team, the last three years were hell, and with the GUI replacement, it's going to be one or two more years of hell, minimum.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 16, 2019, 02:54:50 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10539-sb-pro-pe-40-hardware-recommendations/?tab=comments#comment-188760
Quote from: Ssnake
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YKHhejLOZ4s/UM8cceYyFTI/AAAAAAAAL0E/qldF5Y9XaSI/s1600/goodnewseveryone.jpg&f=1&kp=1)
I'm happy to report that the same version 4.0 benchmark scenario performs much better on my main machine (i7-4770K with GTX980) with the latest 4.1 beta version, passing muster to be rated "good". None of the scenes yielded less than 45 frames per second, with an average frame rate of 54. A lot of hard work by artists, beta testers, and programmers alike has paid off big time. 6,000m+ visibility settings will no longer be prohibitive for reasonably powered machines (case in point, my machine is about four or five years old now). :)

The beta team will start a more thorough and systematical test with the benchmark scenario so that we can provide ratings for a bigger spectrum of CPU and GPU combinations, so please don't treat this as the final result. But, I'm almoste elated. It also confirms what I wrote three years ago, that there wouldn't be the one easy fix to boost the frame rates. Rather, a lot of different optimizations had to be made, but they paid off as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on April 16, 2019, 03:18:22 AM
Good news indeed! I too am Elated. Elevated. Electrified. Keep up the good work eSimGames and release the next version before Christmas.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 16, 2019, 03:43:41 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12623-wondering-about-a-few-things-regarding-the-update/?tab=comments#comment-188772
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Scrapper511
1. How will the new terrain affect hardware requirements?
Not at all, as far as we can say at this point. Performance seems to increase over 4.0 actually, although these are preliminary results. I will post the hardware recommendations in this forum, as soon as the beta testers have completed a broader survey of CPU and GPU combinations.

Quote from: Scrapper511
2. How did the bridges, on-ramps, and adjustable height features turn out?
There will be features to build ramps (including curved ones), to raise or depress roads and streams. There's a leveling and smoothing tool for roads, and under buildings. To that extent the initial capability is there. It's the details that make things more defficult. If, say, you build a straight ramp with a continuous slope and the road for which you do this has a number of T-intersections along that ramp, chances are that each T-intersection will end up with a steep bump simply because roads going uphill are usually with variable slopes. So you'd need to build the ramps only from one intersection to the next. Which makes the tool difficult to use, as long as we don't complement it with additional functionality and automation functions. 
We wanted to develop a new map editor, but ran into scheduling conflicts. So, that part of the job will need to be addressed in a future version.

Quote from: Scrapper511
3. Any new 3D objects for the map editor?
Yes.

Quote from: Scrapper511
4, Has the map-editor changed in functionality whatsoever?
Yes, see #2.

Quote from: Scrapper511
5. Any new vehicles included?
Yes!

Quote from: Scrapper511
6. How much for the new printed manual? What's the new content?
The manual is now 221 pages without cover (so, about 10% longer). We went through every chapter and tried to cross-check if what's written there is still accurate. Large parts of the Map Editor chapter and the file structure of map files had to be rewritten. So it's mostly about what's new in version 4.1 compared to previous versions (since our customers will continue to use older and the latest version for a while). The price will be comparable to previous printed manuals, but is not yet determined. We will offer preorders for manuals and bundles with other items that we'll offer with a substantial discount. But we still need to figure out the details.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 22, 2019, 04:24:31 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/14/?tab=comments#comment-188982
Quote from: inexus
Let’s see if it will ever happen. Been told for so long that one reason after another that it is constantly getting postponed. The graphics engine is so old and outdated. Sorry to sound pessimistic but the please look back at what improvements ther has been over the last many years. I’m impressed with the patience people have in this forum to keep saying ‘it’s ok’.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/14/?tab=comments#comment-188983
Quote from: Ssnake
A lot of the changes that we had to work on were really hard to do. That invoked a lot of uncertainty about projected release dates. But I am now confident that we have a near release-ready product by now. I admit that I had my doubts around end of 2017/mid 2018 whether things would work out, but the latest version that we have demonstrates much improved frame rates (that is, better than in 4.0). This required a myriad of optimizations - including a complete replacement of all vegetation artwork to allow for the instancing of trees, and ground clutter. And the biggest effect was to be seen only relatively late in the process (like, a week ago). It's one thing to know that such a change is coming, and another to experience the effect first hand.

4.1 will bring much improved AI in select demonstration cases, for both vehicles and infantry, especially when navigating obstacles such as "parked cars" on the road side, "blocked" bridges by one immobilized vehicle, dealing with water, and wadi edges, infantry formations moving in urban terrain. Again, these improvements required massive changes to much of the underlying legacy code. Which, in turn, created a few hundred bug reports that had to be identified, reported, supplemented with a test case, then solved (and be tested again and again in daily automated test procedures).

Finally, 4.1 will also come with an entirely new model of high explosive and fragmentation effects. We couldn't finish that work, but we have reached an intermediary stage that will already bring a lot of pretty cool improvements. But replacing the legacy code was, again, a tough nut to crack for the same reasons as outlined in the "AI" section above.

The changes in the file structure for the map files caused a massive cascade of other changes since we wanted to retain user flexibility and some degree of convenience for multiplayer sessions; like the ability to pull a missing map from a server simply by copying a unique identifier code and pasting it into a dialog in SB Pro (and then to be able to define more than one server from which to query your files ... so every community can set up their own server, if so desired, for their own set of map files). Again, all that needs to be tested.


You all cannot thank the beta testers enough. They really had it rough. More than any of you, we want this to be over!
So you can believe me, we will not delay the release a minute longer than absolutely necessary. We're mere humans here at eSim Games. I cannot divine the future. I understand that you as customers want to know what's ahead, and I admit that we made a serious mistake in April 2016 when I released videos of the new engine in the mistaken belief that we would be ready a few months later when the beta testers told me that we were not. In April 2019 I'm telling you that we will be ready in a few months with more confidence because I've learned to listen more closely to the beta testers, and the beta testers have learned to voice their objections more bluntly.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on April 23, 2019, 02:43:54 AM
Nice to hear the good reports. How about some WIP screenshots then?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 23, 2019, 05:02:18 AM
Nice to hear the good reports. How about some WIP screenshots then?
As Ssnake has already said, we're going to have to wait for those.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 23, 2019, 04:04:04 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12623-wondering-about-a-few-things-regarding-the-update/?tab=comments#comment-188999
Quote from: Scapper_511
Thanks Ssnake. In the 'patch ETA' thread, you reiterated the difficulties involved in reprogramming legacy code. Out of curiosity, how much of the legacy code has been reworked up to this point? I mean, if there's such a thing as completion, how close are you folks to it? Do you see a day where the needs of an entirely new program/engine will supersede the need for backwards compatibility? It would suck to lose maps and scenarios but it sounds like a new program/engine would make updates easier?

Edit: Also, thanks for adding a new comment in the 'hardware requirement' thread. Great news there.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12623-wondering-about-a-few-things-regarding-the-update/?tab=comments#comment-189000
Quote from: Ssnake
I don't have a percentage for you.
What I can tell is that we would never release something that would invalidate maps and scenarios. Even a completely new engine would at least have to be able to import legacy scenarios and maps, and save them in the new format. You created all that content. We won't throw away what's not ours.

We have, indeed, discussed whether we should better start from scratch, or make a more "gradual transition". I think we have now a better understanding of the implications of a gradual transition. But even then, from scratch is a high risk development strategy. Say, we'd need two years to create some prototype that could then begun to be tested, and then another three years to add all the content and functionality that's in SB Pro as we know it. Five years later we end with a product that may be easier to maintain, but it's representative of the state of Steel Beasts five years before, just with new bugs that are, allegedly, easier and faster to fix. Where's the benefit for the customer? Why should anyone pay for this? You already have a version that works, and our promise would be to charge full price for something that is defined as "all new, and just as good" with, probably, the sole additional benefit of higher frame rates. That doesn't make sense, even if the most devoted Steel Beasts fans might actually be willing to pay, just to support our work. Thanks for that, but we also need to convince the average user.

The reality is, Steel Beasts isn't one computer game among many others that you play. If you want to master it, it's an entire hobby. Which is probably the hardest sell. And with a decision for development from scratch we'd just have doubled the price, and added five years of product stagnation. I may not be the world's greatest entrepreneur, but this doesn't sound exactly like a winning strategy to me. Maybe I'm just lacking the vision. ;)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 24, 2019, 04:32:03 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12623-wondering-about-a-few-things-regarding-the-update/?tab=comments#comment-189042
Quote from: delta6
Have you made the concertina deployable in the same fashion as roads??? Will we be getting mortar pits,berms,and smaller bunker emplacements???

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12623-wondering-about-a-few-things-regarding-the-update/?tab=comments#comment-189043
Quote from: Ssnake
For one of these, the answer is Yes. :)
Others are still on the list.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12623-wondering-about-a-few-things-regarding-the-update/?tab=comments#comment-189046
Quote from: Scrapper_511
Ssnake, do you now have a good estimate of how big the installation file will be? In an older thread you mentioned possibly 20GB. Has it increased well beyond that size? I'm curious since my primary drive is an 80GB SSD which SB resides on (for speed) along with Win7.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12623-wondering-about-a-few-things-regarding-the-update/?tab=comments#comment-189048
Quote from: Ssnake
The program installation itself will not grow substantially. Sure, it's bigger - new artwork comes with new textures, so there's a bit there.
  • Version 2.656: 0.99 GByte
  • Version 3.027: 2.37 GByte
  • Version 4.023: 2.45 GByte
  • Current 4.1 beta: 2.77 GByte
This can be approximately doubled as far as the disk space requirement after installation is concerned.
Map data, on the other hand, will come separately, and can be installed in any other directory (including different disk drives). This is one of the major deviations from traditional file path conventions (which was largely dictated by Microsoft recommendations for Windows application in multi-user environments; we try to stick to the rules). Instead, Steel Beasts 4.1 will store the path to the map files in a registry key so that subsequent installations will still recognize the directory even after a complete reinstallation. So, if your C drive is pressed for disk space, that's the way out for you.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 25, 2019, 08:53:34 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12623-wondering-about-a-few-things-regarding-the-update/?tab=comments#comment-189079
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Ssnake
For one of these, the answer is Yes. :)
Actually, make that two, I just noticed.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/14/?tab=comments#comment-189074
Quote from: Ssnake
Correct, version 4.0 and 4.1 are still pretty close to each other as far as the render engine are concerned. But even at eSim Games, the days of DirectX 9 are numbered.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 28, 2019, 06:39:18 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10539-sb-pro-pe-40-hardware-recommendations/?tab=comments#comment-189189
Quote from: Ssnake
The more thorough evaluation comes back slightly less positive with above 40 fps as the lowest, and above 49 frames on average, on default settings, in Full HD resolution.

With minimal settings (no shadows, no antialiasing, no nothing) I could even get an Intel HD4600 graphics chipset to work in HD resolution, with an overall "not recommended" verdict (but still above "unusable"), where the minimum framerate was above 21, and the average framerate being a somewhat respectable 32. An hour into the test the graphics developed strange artifacts.. Pretty much anything above one notch in the graphics settings made Steel Beasts top responding, however, so definitely "not recommended".

Overall, and this is still preliminary, we can at least see that different cards/video RAM/CPU combinations deliver different results again (that is, other than "poor", which was the universal result with 4.0). While that isn't where I'd like it to see, it's still a marked improvement over 4.0 results. In all fairness towards the programming team I have to point out that if the settings are dialed back to where they were when we started with version 3.0, the framerates are quite comparable.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on April 30, 2019, 04:01:37 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/15/?tab=comments#comment-189295
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Hedgehog
Typical past experience is about $40, i think
It'll be less than that since we failed to deliver the new terrain to version 4.0 as initially promised.

The price will be a bit variable though depending on whether you go with the pure download option, or if you order the bundle with physical media (such as the terrain installer and the printed manual). As soon as we have settled on our options, we'll take preorders. I had hoped to be at this point two weeks ago, admittedly. :(
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 01, 2019, 04:10:11 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12680-using-steel-beasts-with-vorpx-vr/?tab=comments#comment-189327
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: T. Frankowski
I understand, well I'll hopefully be getting a RTX 2080 and a i9 9900k soon, so that could help with frames.
Only marginally so. The benchmark results we're getting back from the beta testers show that, on the one hand, frame rates are universally better in 4.1 than they currently are in 4.0, which is good. At the same time there are clearly CPU limited scenes where all the GPU power in the world won't help you. Where you aren't CPU limited even a GTX 980 or 1070 delivers adequate (if capped) performance.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 01, 2019, 07:55:17 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/15/?tab=comments#comment-189351
Quote from: Ssnake
As mentioned on previous occasions, we'll split the installer into at least two separate ones; one for the Steel Beasts installation as you know it. And one for terrain data. The idea being that if we update Steel Beasts but the map data remain unchanged, we can cut the download size dramatically. Right now the map folder for version 4.1 contains about 15.3 GByte of data. People with broadband connection have no trouble with that, but there are people who cannot download packages of that size. Since we wanted to print a new batch of user manuals anyway (a lot has changed with respect to (terrain) data organization, the map editor, and how maps and scenarios gets combined) we figured that this would be the ideal opportunity to bundle this with physical media for at least the map installer.
Right now we're considering 16GByte USB thumb drives as the means of delivery.

"Download only" will of course remain an option.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 02, 2019, 11:22:26 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12689-how-to-keep-my-units-on-or-in-a-column-formation/?tab=comments#comment-189393
Quote from: Ssnake
THAT actually hasn't much effect on the manual because the improved pathfinding integrates very nicely and in an intuitive way into the user interface. And since the performance is increased (dramatically) we're no longer offering the choice to create a scenario without a navmesh. It simply gets created, period. In 40 seconds or (usually) much less, and at better quality than what took up to 20 minutes in the past.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on May 03, 2019, 10:56:36 AM
Will we get to see undulating high resolution terrain as in that one-year old video by esimgames where an APC was shown in a very hilly and mini sand dunes environment?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 03, 2019, 04:15:01 PM
Will we get to see undulating high resolution terrain as in that one-year old video by esimgames where an APC was shown in a very hilly and mini sand dunes environment?
Maybe in new trailers (if they ever come out). I don't know if Steel Beasts 4.1 will come with high resolution maps.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 15, 2019, 04:02:52 PM
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/training-simulation/itec-2019-austrian-leopard-2-simulator-capabilitie/
https://vimeo.com/336332107
The version running in this video is Steel Beasts "4.150, patch 4, with an extra modification" (https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12548-itec-2019/?tab=comments#comment-189684).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 16, 2019, 09:43:27 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12548-itec-2019/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-189746
TOS-1A Buratino.

Vehicles are in order of appearance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA11WcXXvjg
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 17, 2019, 03:19:05 PM
Screenshots of the interior of the DF-90 (despite Grenny's/Ronin's teasing, it was easy to determine just by Googling the ammo and the DF-90): https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12548-itec-2019/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-189775

https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8643-version-4-1xx/?postID=59174#post59174
Translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ronin
The optical is only one part :-)
Esim has mainly worked in the cellar and engine room in recent years. Some mechanics of the game have been adjusted or fundamentally changed.
That There will not be quite as many new cars in this update (though there are still plenty of them), but I think you'll like the gameplay experience.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: wilso845 on May 17, 2019, 05:32:20 PM
Looking good brah....im curious to what will be released first, DCS F-16 or the SB update. 😂
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 17, 2019, 06:18:36 PM
Looking good brah....im curious to what will be released first, DCS F-16 or the SB update. 😂
Steel Beasts 4.1 will be coming in June, as has been mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 17, 2019, 06:22:44 PM
Additional screenshots from the DF-90: https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8643-version-4-1xx/?postID=59175#post59175
(https://forum.steelbeasts.org/attachment/27685-ss-14-48-24-jpg/)
(https://forum.steelbeasts.org/attachment/27684-ss-14-48-09-jpg/)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on May 17, 2019, 11:21:48 PM
Looking good brah....im curious to what will be released first, DCS F-16 or the SB update. 😂

2 more weeks....  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on May 18, 2019, 01:35:06 AM
Need ..... MORE....ITEC 2019 .... videos......please.....thanks.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 18, 2019, 02:15:09 AM
Here you go, Frankie :): https://vimeo.com/user24301173
eSim Games shows up in the background of this one:
https://vimeo.com/336562194
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on May 18, 2019, 02:47:12 AM
Awesome stuff, Rinix.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 18, 2019, 03:23:50 AM
Thanks. :howdy
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 19, 2019, 05:16:39 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12548-itec-2019/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-189844
I am able to check off the following from my Steel Beasts wish list:
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Panzer_Leader
I assume the DF vehicles have been implemented as desktop training aids for the Belgian Army (a new eSim customer?) so should have full switchology etc.
Since it doesn't seem to be obvious enough ... YES. Both DF30 and DF90 have been implemented and will be part of the coming release. If you want to prepare for that, check out the Austrian LMV that you already have, with the ERCWS remote weapon station. Same vendor, a good portion of similarities in the UI and menu structure. Bigger (=more fun) calibers, obviously.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on May 19, 2019, 05:44:17 PM
May eSimGames have many more customers.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 19, 2019, 06:35:01 PM
May eSimGames have many more customers.
I wish that too. My Steel Beasts wish list has Estonia, Portugal, and the Czech Republic as customers, since they won't require too much customization.

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12548-itec-2019/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-189847
Quote from: Grenny
On then contrary, the new version will run significantly smoother then 4.023 on most maschines.
For example, I had to content with 25-35 FPS...and signle digit FPS for "high load cases" in 4.023. Now I'm running 50-60 FPS even with higher graphic settings. Going to heavy load scenarios (smoke, burning buildings and lots of units) I still run above 30.
How this will work out for each individual CPU/GPU combination can of course differ...but there will be an improvement for most users.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 22, 2019, 04:09:05 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12548-itec-2019/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-189935
Quote from: Ssnake
You won't get to see this in version 4.1, at least not in this form.
But I thought it was a neat illustration of the cannon danger zone from sabot petals as we're simulating them. The challenge was that the sabot separation itself happens rather quickly "between frames" so the initial movement appears linear when it's actually shaped more like a trumpet. After that first frame we then let the petals fly with realistic masses and different material properties such as PE (Nylon), carbon fiber, or (mostly) aluminum. Needless to say, a 1.3 kilogram heavy aluminum petal has a much higher destructive potential than a 3 gram piece of plastic (still traveling at supersonic velocities, though).
Air drag still needs to be increased a bit to reduce the max range of the petals compared to this shot by about 30 or 40%, but still.

Yes, overpressure near the muzzle will of course also be harmful to nearby infantry, or trucks. So, MBTs on convoy protection will need to act with a bit more discretion before applying their firepower.

(http://ssnake.org/PE41/V4-1_PetalDangerZone_Viz.jpg)

And while we're making the sabot petals dangerous, we limit this to tanks where human players are responsible for weapon use - commanders, gunners. Otherwise the petals fly through the AAR and create puffs of dust where they hit the ground during the execution phase. You'll see that in some of our future YouTube videos. 

In other news, more variety for terrain themes. We will ship SB Pro PE with a few dedicated "African" themes for your Toyota wars, with termite hills, acacia trees. One day, giraffes (just not in version 4.1). I hope you'll like it.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 23, 2019, 02:34:59 AM
https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8643-version-4-1xx/?postID=59181#post59181
Translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
Three shot KE 120mm on the hard target, helicopters will have to watch:

(http://ssnake.org/PE41/V4-1_120mm_TrSpg_Viz.jpg)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 24, 2019, 12:07:45 AM
Preview video of DF-30 from Grenny/Ronin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko3t5tt1l8c

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12548-itec-2019/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-189991
Quote from: Ssnake
Stealing all my thunder, I see... In the AAR, notice that there's a method to the madness of the color coding - white fragments are (comparatively) weakest, the more red they are the bigger their penetration value. This if course always relative to the individual round, not normalized to some absolute values. As can be seen, fragments to the rear tend to be weaker, simply because they fly against the projectile's trajectory vector.

Each ammunition has been individually parameterized. It may not be perfect, but at least whenever the total in-flight mass of the projectile, the amount of HE filler and the HE filler composition were known, that went directly into the ammo stats. Likewise, activation and burnout distance for the tracer element, along with its color (where it could be determined), and self-destruction range (if any).

In fact, the "New HE" model was a major development effort to improve the overall quality of simulation results. It's now grounded in well-established engineering models surch as Gourney, Taylor, Mott, and THOR (not the Hammertime guy, though). We have now a reasonable model for overpressure damage on infantry (also, some objects will offer blast protection, others won't), the fragments are realistic in number, size, their velocity, and - within limits - their spatial distribution (nigh impossible to determine with accuracy from open sources). All in all I'm actually quite proud of this achievement even though it may not appear all that spectacular. It was a fair bit of work, and had me peeved for about ten years. Finally we found the time to work on this.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 24, 2019, 02:37:36 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12668-the-guess-list/?tab=comments#comment-190001
I'm counting 78 vehicles that are either new or improved. We already know that some of them are the DF-30, DF-90, and TOS-1A Buratino.
Quote from: Ssnake
I can answer that now:
(http://ssnake.org/PE41/V4-1_Agenda.gif)

Disclaimer: These four km² full of new vehicles are partially based on a single vehicle with several equipment options, or a vehicle family with its variants. And there are a handful of vehicles that you already have in 4.0, but with significant changes that deserve some explanation. Also, at least two vehicles have the wrong tactical icon. And I made one mistake, confusing an MBT with an IFV in the picture above.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 24, 2019, 03:54:26 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/15/?tab=comments#comment-190010
Quote from: Japo32
Quote from: Red2112
Yes, there will be a "smaller" price fee but there will be new things with it too.
I don't like this at all. Of course I understand that this is a business and people don't work for free, but that patch was promised as to be included in 4.x without any more money added.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLq7jxmPls4

or here also at the beggining of the videos with new terrain bumpy model in 2016.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzpzFDkOAgo

Also we had to be terrible patience as we had to wait for some years to have it, as it was told to us that the devs couldn't work in it because they had professional contractors first to take care.
I understand that there are some additions to it, and that is fine, but in my case never asked for them. With the terrain model would be enough for me (of course any improve in frame rate shouldn't never be charged).
Also is totally unfair if at the end one person that comes from 2.0 or 3.0 only pays 40$ to upgrade the version to 4.1. I had to pay 40$ + XX$ for the same 4.1 version (not a 5.0). Until when we are going to have free updates of this "new" product? as maybe soon we could have the 5.0 and be charged again? (this is a 4.1x version. Not new 5.0)
Again, I repeat that I understand that devs don't work for free and was a big ammount of work done, but it was promised for free as features of 4.X, and pay for those "free" features plus a rework of plants and framerate, don't make me happy at all.
As I said, I would pay 40$ happily if it would be a dramatic change from the very old dx9.0 to dx11-12 or Vulkan, but I don't desire new tanks added, and of course I think we never should be charged for frame improvements (really 4.023 goes really bad in some situations with good computers.. and that is not our fault).

I had to say it.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 24, 2019, 04:30:22 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12668-the-guess-list/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-190013
Ssnake is referring to the number of crewable vehicles.
Quote from: Ssnake
About 14 vehicles and vehicle families, but that sounds more spectacular than it actually is. As you can see from the image above, there's a fair number of trucks incolved, even if many of them fall into the (light) reconnaissance category. We usually associate more or less complex fire control systems and clickable interiors and whatnot - well, there's the DF30 and the DF90 that fully fall into that category, and then one new remote weapon station. I must confess, I'm beginnning to lose overview, so there may be one or two more that I'd consider "true" crewable vehicles, but at the same time I think it's only fair to point out that additional vehicles with detailed crew positions were not the focus of this development step.

The meat is in a completely revamped lighting/render engine, better looking particle effects, the new HE/fragmentation model, and, of course, the new terrain engine.
Also, "better AI" - but it's largely unspectacular if certain things simply work, so it's more of an absence of frustration that you may notice later on.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 24, 2019, 04:50:09 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/16/?tab=comments#comment-190015
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote
I don't like this at all. Of course I understand that this is a business and people don't work for free, but that patch was promised as to be included in 4.x without any more money added.
I understand and respect that sentiment. At the same time things didn't go as planned. At all. When we made these promises we expected to be able to release the terrain update about half a year or nine months later, tops, and that turned out to be horribly wrong. And yes, "our problem". At the same time there was more and more entirely new development that was piling up which we couldn't separate from the new terrain development, and here's where things get complicated. As far as I am concerned, we have reduced the price of the upgrade from the usual $40.- for a two-year step (which actually took three years) by $10.-, to make good for this slip-up; $15.- for preorders, as soon as our web shop's ready to take them in. At the same time we completely reworked the lighting (yes, that's not quite on the level of "replace DirectX 9" but still a massive improvement), we substantially improved the AI (at least as far as pathfinding is concerned), we replaced the old and inaccurate model of high explosives and fragmentation effects ... and we now have a model that can handle thousands of individual fragments, each with different properties, a model that takes account of objects to reflect pressure waves (or not, in the case of hedges).

I suggest to "withhold judgment until the facts are in", as a certain General Turgidson once said in one of the better movies ever made. A lot of the work that went into this upgrade is somewhat abstract, or at least requires an in-depth review by, say, the one or other video feature. For example, AI that works is entirely unspectacular and as such "unsellable". At the same time it will take the edge off of some common frustration, so it's the kind of value that you discover only after the purchase. In a similar way, what's the value of a better HE model? Sure, you can have more fancy visualization in the AAR about what happened, but at the end of the day it remains a somewhat abstract thing. However, what's the value of more accurate simulation in general, where would you draw the line? Maybe simplified ballistics would also be okay. Do we really need weather simulation? Crosswind? There's a lot of things that could be simplified. But Steel Beasts has always been about going the extra mile for more accuracy in simulation results. At the end of the day the satisfaction with a simulation largely stems from the sum of all things that were done right, less the sum of all things done wrong, from knowing that the amount of BS that you encountered is substantially lower than what you experience in your average shooter game. And the new HE model shifts the balance more into the "things done right" direction.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 24, 2019, 05:16:40 PM
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12668-the-guess-list/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-190019
Quote from: Ssnake
14 vehicles, and vehicle families.

There's about 79 individual units on the picture above. 22 of them are one vehicle in different configurations, or maybe you'd call it a vehicle family. Whatever, I count it as "one" when my answer is "14". There's another one that's "seven vehicles in one" if you will, so I count it as "one" as well. It's not easy to answer your question with clarity without spilling all the beans right away. But what's more, it's also a question how you count. I could of course literally count every single vehicle obove there that has a dedicaterd commander's and gunner's position, and then I'd arrive at a number in the high thirties or so. And you'd all go "Kpchhhh... minds blown!" ... and then you'd all crucify me when it turns out that 29 of those would actually be just two vehicles, in variable configuration. So I'm deliberately lowballing here. But I don't have the time to go through all 79 vehicles again to checkmark which of them exactly meets your definition of "crewable" (since you indicated that it must have a commander's and a gunner's position, minimum, and that you could do shooty stuff with it).

So, sorry. I'm not intentionally obtuse, but the confusion is somewhat deliberate because I don't know how to better put it, OK?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on May 24, 2019, 06:37:37 PM
Quote from: Japo32
Quote from: Red2112
Yes, there will be a "smaller" price fee but there will be new things with it too.
I don't like this at all. Of course I understand that this is a business and people don't work for free, but that patch was promised as to be included in 4.x without any more money added.



Valid point!

I said this before.

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 24, 2019, 10:26:29 PM
Here is the next preview video from Grenny/Ronin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5e7GSdkDxY
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 25, 2019, 01:48:38 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12548-itec-2019/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-190064
Quote from: Volcano
It must be kept in mind that infantry have been fundamentally reworked to be (hopefully) much less buggy in their general behavior (movements, path finding, mounting and dismounting, etc). There will likely still be issues, yes, but tons of time and effort were spent in 4.1 overhauling general behavior from (almost) the ground up.

Its a very complicated subject, but there have been tons of non-glamorous infantry improvements 'under the hood'.  The underlying foundation has to be improved before additional features are tacked on, and the foundation is what we are concentrating on here.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 26, 2019, 12:21:27 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/16/?tab=comments#comment-190104
Another delay, this time to July.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/9ecbd239b7a9d7658154c4b2f7f69952/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 26, 2019, 04:20:17 PM
Information on the advanced optics for infantry that we saw in the previous preview video: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12548-itec-2019/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-190116
Quote from: Ssnake
JIM-LR will be found under "personal optronics", along with night vision gear as the second option, and who knows what else might get added in the future. So, in principle, every infantry unit could be equipped with it.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 26, 2019, 05:08:46 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10752-how-to-engage-assault-move-apcs-and-then-unload-infantry/?tab=comments#comment-190132
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Koen
-> Will this maybe different now in 4.1 ?
I hope so.

Infantry SQUADS will no longer converge when you set a movement target (irrespective of the method - via route or via direct command from the eye view or overhead view). But of course, if you dismount an entire platoon and then let all squads move along the same route, they would still arrive at the same waypoint. You would rather have to register the infantry platoon as a formation, and then create a new "formation route" to make sure that the infantry platoon remains spread out throughout the entire movement phase.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 27, 2019, 06:24:48 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/16/?tab=comments#comment-190165
Quote from: Japo32
Quote from: Red2112
I´ll put it this way...

For some of us flight sim fans, which Japo32 is a developer for, the transition from one version to another (be it X-Plane or P3D), has meant a PAID for upgrade for most of the payware airframes.  In return we got a slightly better performance, with minor addition to the over all package (version).  Which means that those of us who had alot of quality payware add-ons had to re-buy those add-ons, be it full price or at a discount if we wanted such payware in our newly installed version of whatever sim (X-Plane/P3D).  So it´s funny to even read a rant like that coming from such a background.  We all have bad days thought...

--
When I released the CRJ200 for xplane11 I didn't ask anybody to pay me again, and I made changes to make it better. I never ask for money when there is not a big change-upgrade in my products, and the CRJ200 came from xplane9 with lots of minor changes for some years. My rest of the planes are the same.
I understand that someone ask you money from version to version, but not when same version.

I paid 80$ per the 3.XX version when it was in sale
Then paid 40$ for the 4.0 to upgrade.
Now I will need to pay XX $ to have a 4.1X version... and maybe soon another time to change from 4.XX to 5.0.

Sorry but I don't see it fair. Specially when the main feature that have the 4.1X version was promised to be included in a free update when the 4.0 was released.
Of course everyone can have their opinion thinking that is good that they are still developing. I know that lots of people want to buy the sim but they don't do it because it is very expensive (more is DCS, but they pay each module independently and when they want).
Maybe I will think wait for the 5.0 version to just pay the 40$ only (if it is the same price) and don't pay twice for it). At the end I am almost not playing with anyone, because there is no people that has this sim because the price it has. So it becomes a niche.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on May 27, 2019, 07:18:59 PM
Quote from: Red2112
I´ll put it this way...

For some of us flight sim fans, which Japo32 is a developer for, the transition from one version to another (be it X-Plane or P3D), has meant a PAID for upgrade for most of the payware airframes.  In return we got a slightly better performance, with minor addition to the over all package (version).  Which means that those of us who had alot of quality payware add-ons had to re-buy those add-ons, be it full price or at a discount if we wanted such payware in our newly installed version of whatever sim (X-Plane/P3D).  So it´s funny to even read a rant like that coming from such a background.  We all have bad days thought...


That argument is not presented clearly.

In Flight simulation, namely Xplane and P3D. A person would be asked to pay again if they were going from one full version to another. For example V2 => V3 which would have significant changes. 64bit code for example. However a recent update included Physics based rendering (PBR) which was free. The customer is not charged for smaller updates like V2.1 to V2.2.

Also many updates in flightsim were/are free from the add-on developers. Some do charge exorbitant amounts...A2A & PMDG come to mind.

Many developers give free updates but not all. Some are small and it is maybe their only source of income...They need to live.

Ultimately it is the choice of the customer/market if it wants to pay.

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 27, 2019, 07:55:50 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/16/?tab=comments#comment-190169
I'm reading this as RogueSnake agreeing with Ssnake that it's OK to be annoyed about paying for the new terrain engine if that's what matters to you.
Quote from: RogueSnake
Well, I think you need to keep in mind that this is more than a terrain update.  You could say that it is the biggest component of this upgrade, but what would it take for it not to be?  The entire world that SB exists in is being replaced.   We could have 20+ new playable vehicles(there is not) in this upgrade, with the terrain.  Would the vehicles be a "bigger" part of the update?   Really hard to top a complete replacement of the world.   So to call it a "Terrain patch", or "Terrain upgrade", is fair, and not fair at the same time. 

As sSnake has stated, this is MORE than just a terrain update.  Its MORE than just bug fixes and improvements.  There is still more to be shown, and perhaps it might be better for you to view those things as the justification for $'s, everything that isn't terrain related.   Had this been only a terrain update, with some bug fixes, well that would have been a dick move(to ask for $).  And we know that, so we added more.   Stuff that would have normally rolled into another major update.   The reality is, and this is a fact, you guys are going to get stuff that you would have not gotten until a later date, BECAUSE we had to delay the terrain.   I think once all is revealed, the vast majority of you will be pleased with what you are getting for your money.   And if it not, that's fair too.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on May 27, 2019, 08:14:58 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/16/?tab=comments#comment-190169
I'm reading this as RogueSnake agreeing with Ssnake that it's OK to be annoyed about paying for the new terrain engine if that's what matters to you.

He works for Esim games so....... :whistle

No one is saying that SB is a bad sim. The issue that many have is....

 :Thumbsup2

The point is being lost that many purchased the V4 update FOR THE TERRAIN SPECIFICALLY. It never came. Now if they want what they originally paid for then they will have to pay again.

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 28, 2019, 12:11:19 AM
Here is the next preview video from Grenny/Ronin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcEWHpeFCBU

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/16/?tab=comments#comment-190172
I think Ssnake is missing the point.
Quote from: Ssnake
We're very generous with our upgrade grace period. You'll be able to upgrade to version 4.1 if you still have nothing but a version 2.6 license from 2011. That means, with a 4.0 license you can probably wait another five years before an upgrade without an increase in price. Nobody is forcing anyone at gunpoint to plunk down bucks for an upgrade that doesn't convince you. All I'm asking for is an open mind as far as all the other stuff is concerned, and then to decide if all that other stuff is worth $25.-
If not, then don't. No hard feelings. :)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 28, 2019, 12:24:21 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12548-itec-2019/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-190178
Somehow, I don't feel that "the date is set" will last.
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Apocalypse 31
Do we get the same effect from other munitions? Artillery, mortars, HE shells?
Eventually yes, but not now. If we had a few more months... but the date is set, and we just won't introduce a high-risk feature at the last minute.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 28, 2019, 12:54:53 AM
Additional details on IEDs, beginning here: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12548-itec-2019/page/7/?tab=comments#comment-190180
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 28, 2019, 04:27:05 PM
Also, the old 4.1 terrain preview video has been made public (it was unlisted before).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttINuQc7Ak0

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/16/?tab=comments#comment-190202
Quote from: Japo32
Well.. the only thing I desire then is that extra price is low enough, because if it is a extra 40$ then I would preffer esim would call it 5.0 as we could have more extra updates for free (??)
And I hope (and I don't think they are going to do it) that infantery can be managed with WASD and mouse pointing method with shift to run as an FPS game (game!!!! nooooo!!! I start hearing...), instead as a vehicle as it is right now. Of course this is an armor simulator, but there is also infantry around to manage, and is a pain to use it without the map paths.

Also I hope one day eSim games would allow buy previous version of SteelBeasts (3.x now) by 80$ for always to let me have more people around to play with. Right now I only can play with US people and Australians, beeing out of bed up to 6 am. The people that are around me are not so much to coincide (2 or 3 people that I know. And I am introduced very well in different simulators communities). Usually people that are interested just buy a month fee and because there is no community around they don't come back to play, so they loose their month even without playing with anyone online.
80$ is still high for lot of people, but at least they will have the sim forever and can extend their online matches to start producing a community background. I personally would put it for 60$ to make it more popular (the old version)

Thanks.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11302-eta-on-terrain-patch/page/16/?tab=comments#comment-190205
Quote from: Ssnake
I wrote it before, I'll write it again: The upgrade fee will be $25.-  for those who preorder, substantially less than the $40.- you keep writing about.
And those who own a CodeMeter stick with any license of SB Pro PE on it can always order an "old upgrade" which includes a version 3.0 license. For, get ready for it, $80.-
And that would include a 4.1 license as well.

We're not selling SB Pro PE 3.0 as a separate item because we don't want to sow confusion by adding more and more options. Arguably there's too much choice in our web shop already.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 28, 2019, 08:52:04 PM
New artillery/FO vehicles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSIvT337vzw
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Oleg on May 29, 2019, 01:36:22 PM
I think there is a 2S35 Coalition-SV
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: wilso845 on May 29, 2019, 02:01:47 PM
Finally support assets that can be used in real time. Probably get clobbered by enemy before the tank scrape is done 😂
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on May 29, 2019, 03:54:17 PM
Why is it called Wildlife Observation? All I see is a static view, hears lots of ambient noise, and then a fleeting glimpse of an armoured thingy passing by.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 29, 2019, 03:57:07 PM
Oleg, after closer inspection, you are right, it is a 2S35.

Finally support assets that can be used in real time. Probably get clobbered by enemy before the tank scrape is done 😂
What do you mean by this? If you mean on-map SP artillery, we've had that since 3.0.

Why is it called Wildlife Observation? All I see is a static view, hears lots of ambient noise, and then a fleeting glimpse of an armoured thingy passing by.
The vehicles are the Steel Beasts. ;)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 29, 2019, 04:04:37 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/?tab=comments#comment-190246
Quote from: Ssnake
Someone egged me on to find out how many craters you can have in a given area.

(http://ssnake.org/PE41/V4-1_Kablooie.jpg)

Turns out, beyond a certain crater density no more craters get added.

(http://ssnake.org/PE41/V4-1_Crater_Field.jpg)

Nevertheless, I suppose "a lot" is good enough for the moment.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lusik on May 29, 2019, 04:23:44 PM
Somehow I missed the craters before. Thanks for bringing it up Rinix. Apparently, whey will be created by IEDs only. Vendetta mission may gain a new level with this feature.  ;)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on May 29, 2019, 04:46:40 PM
Craters are new in 4.1, right?
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Lusik on May 29, 2019, 04:49:26 PM
Craters are new in 4.1, right?

Yes, this is a new feature. I'd love to get back to SB but real life takes precedence now. I'm sure though, that once 4.1. is launched, you will see me back online. :)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on May 29, 2019, 05:29:55 PM
Jartsev has identified one of the vehicles as the 1V13: http://tanksim.ru/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=577&start=15#p8809
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 01, 2019, 03:09:28 PM
Ssnake notes that he made a mistake in listing the KPVT as an option for the Vector ATTV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM752mWJ2aY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlwpZrHeBU8&lc=Ughblpp6fzHYuXgCoAEC.8UWTnU4xBcr8vd0jSw4DsM
Quote from: Ssnake
Actually, we managed to boost frame rates compared to version 4.0; took a while, but was definitely worth the effort. I was definitely not happy with the 4.0 frame rates. The "Vector" video that I just uploaded was shot with visibility set to ranges between 7.5 and 11 kilometers, no optimized forests (scattered trees used to be a frame rate killer), graphics details settings above default, and the fps were still in the mid 40s to low 50s.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-190344
Quote from: Grenny
This makes dismounting from a vehcile a very vulnerable phase now.
Here the dismounts are close to the vehicle when a MILAN hits
(https://www.steelbeasts.com/uploads/monthly_2019_06/SS_21_25_55.jpg.688a9ab2e970c73aab220cddc8b917e8.jpg)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 01, 2019, 04:54:27 PM
I've just noticed that the T-55As (I'm not confusing them with the T-55AM that's also in the video) have laser rangefinder boxes on top of their main guns. So one of the new tanks in Steel Beasts 4.1 will be the T-55A m. 1974.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: wilso845 on June 01, 2019, 10:00:35 PM


Finally support assets that can be used in real time. Probably get clobbered by enemy before the tank scrape is done 😂
What do you mean by this? If you mean on-map SP artillery, we've had that since 3.0.

I was referring to support assets as in engineers having the ability to make tank scrapes.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 02, 2019, 12:04:38 AM
I was referring to support assets as in engineers having the ability to make tank scrapes.
OK, thanks. ;)

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-190384
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Panzer_Leader
To possibly add to the haul, is that a new T-55 variant? Vanilla hull but LRF box above main gun?
Yes, it is. :)
No crew positions, though.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-190386
Quote from: Ssnake
Like I wrote, the technology is there, in principle. It is however still of limited utility value, something I'm deeply unhappy with. This isn't the guys' fault, inflating the ground resolution by factor 512 while improving frame rates and maintaining the overall flexibility of Steel Beasts was an almost impossible task, but they did it. But we're way behind with applying that technology in a way that is easy to use and that could work largely automatic. But that's just not where we are, yet. This works well for individual roads that snake up mountain flanks, to that extent you can rely on it.

But as soon as there are road intersections, things will quickly fall apart, I'm afraid. We have an idea how that could be made to work. but that'll require a lot of extra effort, and the question is if technology might not overtake us while we're working on it. We might develop a perfect solution for a problem that no longer exists by the time that we've solved it.
For more and more areas high resolution LIDAR scans are becoming available. Where you have sub-meter elevation data resolution, modifications of road profiles are usually no longer necessary as ramps and embankments are already paret of the base model. Procedural modifications like road leveling are only required if the source data quality is poor.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 02, 2019, 01:04:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8SNJWJV7FY
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 02, 2019, 02:00:12 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-190383
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Lumituisku
Oh yes good spotting!  What caught my eye was that enemy troops seemed to fire randomly machine guns at some direction.  As if they didn't know precise location.
That's more due to omissions of film editing. There were the original patrol vehicles in a different location than OP Ant Hill (note the inhumanly precise (if misguided) impacts of 40mm AGL on the second tank after the first missile strike), and then a second OP team.

The AI has improved, but not to the point that they would just panic and shoot on suspected enemy positions. Maybe they shouldn't have fired on the OP teams, but I guess the vehicles were fair game. Also not shown in the film were certain ... highly unprofessional driving maneuvers after stealthily dropping off the two OP teams in the pursuit of relocation.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 02, 2019, 06:05:26 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/55-we-love-screenshots/page/116/?tab=comments#comment-190429
Quote from: Ssnake
I've hinted at it, this one isn't so much about vehicles. The Vector ATTV already accounts for 22 of the icons in my teaser scrteenshot. Then there's all the different supply truck variants, accounting for another seven or so (4 x WLS variants, YAD 4443, MAN KAT with C2 container, M577). One T-55 variant has been spotted (not playable), that's one of the MBT icons. You know about the DF30 and DF90 already (the two major new vehicles with detailed crew stations), the TOS and the PzH 2000 have been mentioned already (though we haven't had a chance to properly present them). So, that's a not too small part of the whole "new fleet". We're not done yet, sure, but as far as vehicles with crew positions are concerned not that many will follow.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 03, 2019, 11:49:29 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-190466
Quote from: Ssnake
There are certain limits we have to adhere to, like that we can't have a detonation point of origin under the surface. Per our 1998 design specifications, contact with the surface ends the life of a missile (and all fragments are "missiles" in that context). So if we'd let a round dive below the surface, no matter how little, all fragments would be immediately removed from all further collision calculations.
The default settings are that a surface explosion will happen at 180% of the round caliber diameter (e.g. for a 155mm shell, 27.9 centimeters above ground).

The volume of the crater however would scale (inversely) with the ground hardness.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-190470
Quote from: Ssnake
You also have to have a look at time steps. Up until now in SB Pro render cycle and simulatio cycle are in lockstep. We simulate a bit, then we render the result. Can be bad for frame rate, of course (but keep in mind that SB pro was intended for the reinforced company level, not the brigade level for which is it applied on a more or less regular level these days). And in this case 16.6667 milliseconds is the highest time resolution you can hope for (typically you'd get 20...40ms, however).

Delayed fuze incurs 5...15 millisends of delay before the round goes off. That's clearly below the time step resolution, so it certainly cannot be applied at all in an analytical fashion. That's not to say that it would be impossible to implement in SOME way but not in the naive approach of simply letting the round travel along its current vector for five more milliseconds. If you want to do that you'need to separate simulation time step from the render cycle. Next thing, you'd probably need to do away with the rule that if a missile touches the ground it gets immediately culled; rather, you'd need some model of how missiles might travel through earth for a (more or less short) distance, and how that would change their energy and the trajectory vector.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-190471
Quote from: Ssnake
...and we can only speculate how that would affect overall performance (not positively, so much I can say).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 07, 2019, 06:23:13 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-190522
Quote from: Grenny
Working on a video currently.
Some screenshots...3P ammo in delay mode vs BTR and troops inside a building
(https://www.steelbeasts.com/uploads/monthly_2019_06/SS_19_09_08.jpg.6032b4213388ffd51efa2f86cef669da.jpg)
(https://www.steelbeasts.com/uploads/monthly_2019_06/SS_19_09_15.jpg.39eba7ae2f415cf7641e1d474aa32521.jpg)
(https://www.steelbeasts.com/uploads/monthly_2019_06/SS_19_10_21.jpg.314c85720b11500bc7557d4ea47294ed.jpg)
(https://www.steelbeasts.com/uploads/monthly_2019_06/SS_19_10_28.jpg.e7f0cfca15782ecfe6f6f1c7f55031f5.jpg)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 07, 2019, 10:21:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnv9h3wHTtU
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 08, 2019, 01:43:00 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-190543
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Gibsonm
Nice improvements / enhancements. Interested to see if these have been applied to "old school" natures like Canister too?
Not yet. For canister we need ballistic flight for all pellets/flechettes, and that will have to wait until a follow-on development step at a later point.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 08, 2019, 03:14:58 PM
Screenshots of new BTR-80 3D model, this will be another wish to check off my wish list once 4.1 is released: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-190556
Quote from: DarkAngel
(https://www.steelbeasts.com/uploads/monthly_2019_06/SS_17_02_51.jpg.ee1c748fdced5de27414f5b929c2226c.jpg)
(https://www.steelbeasts.com/uploads/monthly_2019_06/SS_17_02_31.jpg.cee1afb6d83e92ec12451fc5ec044443.jpg)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 09, 2019, 04:28:10 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-190593
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: MikeKiloPapa
Does the new HE/ fragmentation model include FAPDS /PELE behind armor effects ?
No.
There's still work to do in this field, it'll have to wait until a future update.

KETF is a very special case. Here we will (later) have to apply a different sub-model for the terminal effect, depending on the selection of the fuze mode. What makes it particularly versatile in real life unfortunately also makes it much harder to implement in the simulation. But, at least we have now developed the necessary technological framework within which we can at attempt to handle this case.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 09, 2019, 05:37:19 PM
Animated water and the BTR-82A will be 2 more things to check off my wish list when 4.1 is released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvcAyeW7P-Q
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 09, 2019, 09:43:08 PM
Ssnake reveals the computer hardware that was used in the latest video: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-190606
Quote from: Ssnake
I'm using a GeForce GTX980 with an aging i7-4770K processor. Not a medium range setup, but also not exactly the super-costly state of the art either. Given sufficient RAM a GTX 1060 or even a 1050 can deliver reasonable frame rates, my notebook with GTX1070 does better than my desktop system (but I have more harddisk space for video editing there).

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-190610
Quote from: Ssnake
Memory usage reflects terrain caching; obviously, if free memory is there, we'll utilize it (that's what it's good for, after all). Steel Beasts will adapt, though. If not all of the terrain can fit into memory there will be minor delays when teleporting to distant units. If you remain in one vehicle or just hop to units that are only a few kilometers away, things will be just fine.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 10, 2019, 12:48:28 AM
https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8643-version-4-1xx/?postID=59223#post59223
Translated using Google Translate, "Wald" means forest:
Quote from: Ssnake
GTX980, i7-4770K
Settings "over standard but not until stop".


It's not meant as a benchmark, but as an indication that the frame rates are better than worse compared to version 4.0 and that high visibility does not cost as much performance as we used to. In addition, you can see that Wald now looks much nicer in the distance because we no longer use the cluster billboards.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 10, 2019, 03:32:58 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkUzbvG5hrA&lc=Ugwd8LcoN0JRGrnnrqB4AaABAg
Quote from: Ssnake
...and sorry, no new US equipment. While we want to add more of everything (including US vehicles) I can but remind you of how much of our work is customer-driven. And our customers are in Europe, mostly. Like the Belgian DF90 and DF30. Which probably are as close as it gets to a Stryker even if it isn't quite the same. Of course, the same reason why you might not be too keen on playing the Stryker also applies to the Centauro, or the DF models. I don't really believe in the concept of "medium forces" either. If the enemy is too weak to destroy you, you're heavy. If the enemy can, you're too light. [Mic drop]
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 12, 2019, 02:38:49 AM
https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8643-version-4-1xx/?postID=59227#post59227
Translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
I did not count the trees. All existing ones had to be replaced, and there were quite a few new ones (mainly for other climatic regions, so that they could also be presented adequately). Each model of a tree variety is unique, but of course the same model will be used throughout the map with different scaling and rotation, as before.

Screening is handled similarly to previous Steel Beasts versions; nothing that would warrant a detailed preliminary report. Protection against weapons effect is limited to trunks and possibly distance effect, if an explosive projectile does not hit directly from the target but the detonator is triggered by a branch. This is not fundamentally new either - as well as, this part of the old modeling was basically quite reasonable.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 12, 2019, 03:07:04 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-190709
Quote from: Ssnake
Some - but few - fragments may travel up to several hundred meters. The really dangerous zone starts at about 50m distance from the closest explosion (for 155mm artillery). But if you're in cover (e.g. behind a wall), that can still be relatively safe. With aircraft bombs, at 50m distance the overpressure might still get you.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-190717
Quote from: Ssnake
My remarks about the caching strategy were aimed at RAM (and even 8GB RAM will work just fine). SSDs can help with loading map data, obviously, but you still won't experience stutter if you keep them on a conventional HDD. While I have three SATA-SSDs in my computer, my Steel Beasts maps are stored on a remarkably unremarkable HDD.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 13, 2019, 02:27:14 PM
Two more things that I will be able to check off my wish list when 4.1 is released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz6Yeo0_FYc
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 13, 2019, 06:16:10 PM
I've realized that the video also shows wind effect on the bushes, and that the Kurganets will bring the AT-14 with it. Another two things that I will be able to check off my wish list.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 13, 2019, 08:34:06 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/7/?tab=comments#comment-190769
That's strange, Afganit was working in the video.
Quote from: Grenny
Quote from: Damian90
Did I seen it right, is Afganit active protection system on Kurganets-25 functional, or am I just seeing things?
Nah, I don't think this will be implemented in SB...
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 13, 2019, 09:55:28 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/8/?tab=comments#comment-190776
Then what was in the video?
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Damian90
Did I seen it right, is Afganit active protection system on Kurganets-25 functional, or am I just seeing things?
That would be crazy difficult. The reaction times of these systems are so short, well under the time resolution of a frame time.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 14, 2019, 01:54:21 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz6Yeo0_FYc&lc=UgwzWDa54dDTIklnTJN4AaABAg.8w7a5n402iU8w7z84lLnOp
 :happyhappy
Quote from: Ssnake
(as seen in this and the prervious Finnish Summer Day video; the map in both cases is based on a LIDAR scan, and will be part of the coming release).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 14, 2019, 03:47:37 PM
Screenshots of Kurganets-25: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/55-we-love-screenshots/page/116/?tab=comments#comment-190802

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/8/?tab=comments#comment-190801
Quote from: Ssnake
  • Owners of SB Pro PE 2.6 and higher, on preorder: $25.- for the pure license update/pure download option; after the preorder phase: $30.-
  • Owners of classic licenses version 2.5 and older: $80.- ("old upgrade" option in our web shop)
  • Owners of time-based licenses: $0.-, you simply keep using the license that you have
In addition we will offer certain bundles since the new version also comes with a new user's manual, and a separate map installer. Of course, the PDF version of the user's manual is included in the installation, and the map files can be downloaded separately. Still, it's almost 16 GByte of map data, so we decided to produce USB sticks that will contain the map installer, along with a print batch of the new manual. And just so that we get to produce the right number of items, we will create a preorder option in our web shop,
  • Version 4.1 license upgrade, USB "Map Stick", printed version 4.1 user manual, and a useful and beautiful surprise item (only available through preorder): $53.-
  • USB "Map Stick", printed version 4.1 user manual: $29.50 (after preorder phase)
  • Classic license 4.1 including printed manual, "map stick": $149.00

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/9/?tab=comments#comment-190808
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Japo32
The 16GB data map, is for full earth elevations?
The earth's surface is ~149 million km²; with a 78cm mesh and 16 bit per mesh post that would be approximately 444 Terabytes. Even with 90% compression efficiency we'd still talk about 4 Terabytes, so... no.
The 16 GBytes will essentially be a collection of the maps that were shipped with previous SB Pro PE versions, converted into the new map package format (which will spare you a few days of number crunching at home and a raised electricity bill). That way you can continue to play the vast majority of scenario files ever made for Steel Beasts without having to worry about map conversion. At least that's what we think that will happen. I can't rule out that there's the one or other user who is mostly playing scenarios based on custom maps that require individual conversion. But all the scenarios that are being shipped with SB Pro PE 4.1 (and previously with 4.0, and 3.0) should work "out of the box".
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 14, 2019, 11:46:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obssuMdqojQ
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on June 15, 2019, 05:14:06 AM
Nice to see the empty bullet casings being collected in a recepticle. Good for recycling the bullet casings.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 16, 2019, 04:11:34 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/10/?tab=comments#comment-190933
Quote
Quote from: Hedgehog
@Ssnake which maps are in the map pack?
"A lot."
All the maps that got installed with SB Pro PE 4.0, plus those that we identified which were part of scenarios that are part of the 4.0 installation (with their embedded map data that we could identify). Community-owned map collections or uploads here to SteelBeasts.com are not part of it. The goal is that you can install SB Pro PE 4.1, run the map installer, and then play every tutorial, and every scenario that can be found in "Scenarios" (not "My Scenarios"...) without having to touch the map conversion tools.
I cannot rule out that there will be the odd exception to that rule, but that's the current development goal.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 16, 2019, 08:27:10 PM
Screenshots of a new, unidentified pickup truck: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/10/?tab=comments#comment-190942
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Oleg on June 16, 2019, 08:38:55 PM
I think this is Volkswagen Amarok.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 16, 2019, 11:30:02 PM
I think this is Volkswagen Amarok.
I agree, thank you. :howdy
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 17, 2019, 12:05:01 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/10/?tab=comments#comment-190948
Quote from: Ssnake
We have implemented an AI change to exempt all civilian vehicles from enemy fire even if they belong to a hostile party. This vehicle is the exception from the exception (because "ACAB", or something; if you don't want them to draw fire, make them neutral or allied). It's a first step to add non-military, non-irregular combatants to the mix. One step at a time...
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 17, 2019, 04:37:17 PM
I will be able to check all of these off my wish list when 4.1 is released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nshq8KEvaR4
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 17, 2019, 05:02:49 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo7LaxHkSlI&lc=UgwvSkAo76SoP8gOj7J4AaABAg.8wHddH4Gaob8wHhGnkGAfn
Quote from: Ssnake
Well, they're all in the "Prototypes" section, so the TTB doesn't feel so lonely.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 21, 2019, 04:09:16 PM
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/06/21/the-flare-path-invisible-hulls/
As part of the extensive interview, the following new vehicles are revealed, the T-14 Armata and K-17 Bumerang are on my wish list:
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on June 21, 2019, 06:32:45 PM
Amazing interview. Very detailed and informative. Nils baring his heart on the development process and what has been achieved so far. Nice to read his predictions of the future.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Attila on June 21, 2019, 07:50:41 PM
Yeah, finally SB Pro PE update is underway 👽
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on June 21, 2019, 10:00:54 PM
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/06/21/the-flare-path-invisible-hulls/
As part of the extensive interview, [...]



Quote from: Nils
At the same time version 4.0 had already incorporated a lot of the changes to the render engine needed for the new terrain, so 4.0 was a release that sorta-kinda worked, but with significant losses in framerate with which nobody could be happy. So 2017 and 2018 were largely devoted to clambering out of the hole that we had dug for ourselves. What a magnificent hole that was!

With 4.0 we knew that the framerate was bleeding from a thousand paper cuts. Knowing that you need to heal paper cuts isn’t difficult. Healing the individual paper cut isn’t difficult. But handling a thousand, you run into scaling issues. That’s why it took three more years.

So we have to pay for getting the FPS bug fixed.  :punishment

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 22, 2019, 12:55:51 AM
So we have to pay for getting the FPS bug fixed.  :punishment
Yes, for a complete fix anyway, given that frame rates were partially restored by 4.019. :(
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Attila on June 22, 2019, 07:31:57 AM
Like John Gecko would say greed is GOOD :)
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 26, 2019, 04:32:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTxoqU_0jgA
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 26, 2019, 09:23:23 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/14/?tab=comments#comment-191316
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Gibsonm
I'm also interested to see if craters created at the start of a scenario (via IED, etc.) would eventually be covered by the falling snow at some point in a scenario?
I'm sorry if I created the impression that snow would build up in a Steel Beasts scenario now. It doesn't. I spliced scenes from different scenarios into one video, to illustrate that with deeper snow the surface loses more and more detail.

Beyond that, I haven't tested this idea. I'm not sure if a scenario saved in progress that has craters in it will actually preserve those craters (yet). That's certainly where we want to go eventually, but it's all so new that I haven't figured out all the details myself, yet. But if the craters were preserved, then Yes, with deep snow they would lose the visible contours (they would however remain unchanged as far as the actual terrain profile is concerned, snow is but a cover blanket on top of everything).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 26, 2019, 11:20:29 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/14/?tab=comments#comment-191327
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Ssnake
Beyond that, I haven't tested this idea. I'm not sure if a scenario saved in progress that has craters in it will actually preserve those craters (yet).
Now I have tested it.
  • Save in progress doesn't retain craters (yet), as suspected. That'll have to wait until a future version
  • In deep snow, craters are formed visibly (=from the top of the snow surface)
So, for the moment there won't be "surprise craters" hidden under a deceptively serene surface.

https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8643-version-4-1xx/?postID=59247#post59247
Translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
Fire strike MARS-Btl ... yes, no, it's clear. On the officer's course one was glad, if there were two groups of throwers to two vehicles each. And then you knew that the crap was steaming. And nowadays two PzH 2000s are sent to MES to ensure fire superiority throughout the operation.

But nice that our solution scales well as planned. 644 rockets per rocket, x 12 rockets, x 190 fragments per bomblet, x 24 launcher = 35.24 million chips in real time ... there may be a bit of jerking.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 28, 2019, 05:14:13 AM
Steel Beasts 4.1 preorders have begun: https://www.esimgames.com/?page_id=1530
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on June 28, 2019, 04:23:59 PM
Lemme see...
In February 2015 I bought my SB Pro PE 3.0 license, printed manual and codemeter stick for USD137.90.
Then in 2017, I bought the upgrade license SB Pro PE 4.0 for my CodeMeter stick for USD40.00.
Now in 2019, for me to enjoy SB Pro PE 4.10, a one-time upgrade License for my version 4.0 will cost me another USD25.00.
All in all it will have cost me USD202.00 for 4 years of ownership, of course with incrementally more features.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 28, 2019, 05:06:08 PM
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4480409/re-news-about-version-4-1#Post4480409
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Woofie_Dog
So the big reveal is over? Could you post release notes so we know what we are buying? Or confirm what the new playables are? Or are the available amount of NEW playables going to be dependent on pre-orders?
One or two more videos will be made and uploaded to YouTube, possibly also the one or other preparatory tutorial.
The only thing that depends on the preorders is the production batch size for the physical items - printed manuals, the installation USB stick, the preorder surprise item.

We will quit the preorder phase as soon as there is a noticeable reduction in new orders, suggesting that we have collected the peak demand, and have enough know-how to set the production lot size. So, please make your decision soon if you want any of the physical items. We will of course create more manuals and USB sticks than to barely satisfy the preorder demand, so you can always order both the installation stick and/or the user manual at a later point. But prices will go up.


The release notes will be prepared in the coming days, and be made available before the actual release day. But I can't promise that the preorder phase will last that long.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4480411/re-news-about-version-4-1#Post4480411
Frankie, I think you will be interested in what Ssnake has to say about upgrade fees.
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: SacaSoh
Hey Ssnake, I suppose the preorder bundle upgrade will only upgrade from 4.0 to 4.1, right?

To be more clear, I'm currently with a 2.5 codemeter license and was going to get back to the game in 4.0 (life didn't let me play in the last 8 years lol), but waited for 4.1 (to avoid paying twice for the upgrade), so I didn't purchase the 4.0 upgrade (then USD 40), but now I see that 2.5 to 4.1 is USD 89. So, in the end, I could yesterday had purchased the USD 40 upgrade to 4.0, and then the USD 25 to 4.1, so I missed playing 4.0 and now I have to pay more frown ...

Is there an way around it or I'm OOL? Thank you.
I'm sorry, but it seems like you're out of luck in this case. Version 2.5 was made in 2009, version 2.6 came out in 2011. That we're offering a seven year-long upgrade period including the skipping of major version numbers is, I think, rather generous. At some point we have to draw a line. The last 10 years have seen constant investment on our part to make everything better, with considerable expense. Upgrade fees are at least a symbolic price to have PE players a skin in the game and to contribute to that effort, even if it could never even remotely cover the actual expense.

Now, if you want the items from the preorder bundle, I could fully understand that, and I'm willing to help out; you could order both the $53 bundle and the $89 upgrade, and then contact me (my forum name here (at) eSimGames.com). I would cancel the 4.0 to 4.1 license upgrade ticket, and we would refund $25 to your credit card account. That would amount to $117 in total, compared to $149 for a completely new purchase, still a substantial savings. A possible alternative are time-based licenses. At $39.50 for a year you could play Steel Beasts for two years straight and still have money left compared to the $89 upgrade option.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 28, 2019, 06:42:54 PM
Preview screenshots of improved smoke fire mission impact: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/15/?tab=comments#comment-191441
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 28, 2019, 09:00:53 PM
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4480465/re-news-about-version-4-1#Post4480465
He's completely right about lowering the selling price. But the high price (for a new purchase) is intended to act as a deterrent against impulse buyers, so it's here to stay, at the expense of community growth. :(
Quote from: JJJ65
No offence, but no major version upgrade, i.e. from 4.0 to 4.1 for US$53.00 seems too much. You must admit that your expenses were/are well paid by Steel Beasts Professional customers - by military professionals that are your main targeting group. Personal edition is just for general audience and not main scope of your business.
For the value of 4.1 upgrade we can buy full versions of other sim/games, e.g. IL-2 Tank Crew, Steel Fury, Panzer Elite, etc. etc.
Of course, that is just my personal opinion. IMHO, changing your marketing strategy lowering selling price of PE would significantly increase the quantity of sales leading to increased profit.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on June 29, 2019, 01:22:22 AM
I saw this in Herr Ssnake's reply "But prices will go up.". 
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Asid on June 29, 2019, 01:56:58 AM
Quote from: Ssnake  28/06/19
I think that for 4.0 users, asking for $25.- for three years of the team's really hard work is seriously underpriced. But we promised the new terrain engine for version 4.0 and it took us three years longer, so I at least honor that promise with the implicit $15.- discount.

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/iAYupOdWXQy5a4nVGk/giphy.gif)




Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 29, 2019, 02:18:24 AM
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4480484/re-news-about-version-4-1#Post4480484
I'm having more than a little difficulty believing that the expenses haven't been paid by army customers, given how much of their revenue comes from those customers. Back in 2006, it was $18,000 for a 10 PC license for Steel Beasts Pro, or $1,800 per PC (http://www.tanksim.com/topic15_sbp_interview.htm).
Quote from: Ssnake
Most of the $53.- are the costs of shipping, handling, printing the manual, and having the USB stick manufactured. As a 4.0 license owner you may simply go for the "pure download" option for $25.-

4.1 is a major upgrade from a functional point of view. The version number after the decimal point is irrelevant. When we released SB Pro PE, the first version was 2.251, the first major upgrade was then 2.419, followed by 2.538, 2.640, etc.; at the end of the day, these are nothing but sequential version number incremented by each compiler run. There is nothing else to it.

As to whether the expenses have been paid for by army customers - this is only partially true, and even then it's a logical fallacy to accept any price other than zero if one would take the argument seriously. In which case you could just as well argue that no company should make a single cent of profit as soon as all the expenses have been covered. Which is a serious economic theory, called Socialism. Measured by the amount of profit (less the amount of customer support cases) that it generates, the Personal Edition receives a disproportionately large fraction of our development time. We still do it because the Personal Edition is a good yardstick to juge ease of use/accessibility, and PE users are quicker and more vocal to report bugs.


All that being said, nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. Here's our offer. I think it's very much worth it. But value is a highly subjective thing that depends on personal preferences and the general situation. A glass of water may be worth thousands if you're lost in the desert, or worth nothing if you're caught in a rainstorm. I think that for 4.0 users, asking for $25.- for three years of the team's really hard work is seriously underpriced. But we promised the new terrain engine for version 4.0 and it took us three years longer, so I at least honor that promise with the implicit $15.- discount.

https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8656-steel-beasts-pro-pe-version-4-1-vorbestellen/?postID=59284#post59284
Translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
Only as long as absolutely necessary (that is, so that we have a good base to estimate how many manuals we should print, how many USB sticks are to be made). It is quite possible that the pre-order phase already ends one week before the start of shipping (ie at most two weeks).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Attila on June 29, 2019, 09:07:27 AM
License updated to 4.1  :howdyfor a price of a Bottle of good Russian Standard Vodka  >:(
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Oleg on June 29, 2019, 10:30:58 AM
In Russia from 6$ per 0.5 liters.  Four bottles per license.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 29, 2019, 04:15:18 PM
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4480549/re-news-about-version-4-1#Post4480549
The discussion continues to go nowhere. I think Ssnake is referring to the time they cut the price to $85, but I might be wrong. In any case, $85 is still expensive compared to other games.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 30, 2019, 04:48:01 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12874-steel-beasts-pro-pe-version-41-pre-orders-now-being-accepted/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-191578
Quote from: Ssnake
Looks like I have to catch up on a few posts, some may already have been answered; nevertheless, here's the official answer:
The preorder bundles serve the purpose to give us a clue how many physical items we have to produce - printed manuals, installation USB drives. Therefore we offer an incentive to order early on - the mysterious surprise item, and a price discount. Now, the manual will of course be part of the installation, as a PDF file. You could have it printed yourself at the local copy shop, but the print will be more costly and come without our nice cover than price of a copy ordered from eSim Games, but if you read the manual on a tablet or if you don't mind alt-tabbing between Steel Beasts and the Acrobat Reader, it's definitely a strictly optional item. Likewise, the installation USB drive will contain both the map installer and the Steel Beasts installer. But both will be downloadable. The thumb drive is therefore again a strictly optional thing, with the greatest utility value to those who have a crappy internet connection where downloading 19 GByte either requires visiting an internet cafe, or a full weekend and then some to squeeze the data through a narrow bandwidth connection.

So, $25.- is all that's needed, in principle. But if you want a printed manual, the $53.- bundle is probably the better option.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12874-steel-beasts-pro-pe-version-41-pre-orders-now-being-accepted/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-191583
Ssnake responds to our Frankie :howdy:
Quote from: Ssnake
Sorry, no.
WELL, "mostly no".
  • We have separated all map installation (save the tutorial, and "empty" map) from the Steel Beasts installer. That way we can update each installer separately, which probably means "never again" for the map installer. The advantage is that the map packes does not have to be downloaded every time that we change Steel Beasts.
  • Both the Steel Beasts and the Map Installers will be made available for download. Chances are, we'll put the map installer up for download a few days ahead of the Steel Beasts installer. But if you're on a slow internet connection, the $53.- bundle may still be your better option.
  • That being said, if you install 4.1 before uninstalling 4.0 (or 3.0) you could attempt to convert all the maps yourself, substituting internet bandwidth by CPU horepower (and electricity consumption). But this is more of a theoretical option since many of the legacy scenarios came with embedded maps that we couldn't directly convert. It was a bloody chore to do all this. We did it, so that's proof that anyone can do it in principle, but it cost us a fair bit of time and hair pulling, and it's a very error-prone process in that you would probably overlook some cases, etc.; we invested a lot of testing time in the attempt to catch all the special cases, you can't just write a batch file to auto-convert everything. (Well, actually, there are enough command line parameters available now to do a batch conversion, but it still wouldn't work for more than maybe 70% of all cases)
My recommendation would be to order the $53.- bundle, and to email me about refunding the other ticket. If you already activated the other ticket, tell me the ticket number of the bundle, and I will cancel that one instead. No problem.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12874-steel-beasts-pro-pe-version-41-pre-orders-now-being-accepted/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-191602
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: daft
Hopefully 4.1 will be out well in time for my 6 week vacation starting on Wednesday.
Unlikely, but chances are you'll get it before the end of your holidays. :)

https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8656-steel-beasts-pro-pe-version-4-1-vorbestellen/?postID=59297#post59297
Translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
  • The USB stick is red, shapely, looks good due to the eSim logo laser engraving, and is dispensable --- if you have a good internet connection. However, this is not self-evident, especially in Germany. However, if you also want a current printed (English) manual, you should order the bundle for $ 53, -. There will also be an updated manual in German language (as PDF).
  • As always, a mix of versions in the network is not possible. This was the same with all previous version jumps (2.5, 2.6, 3.0, 4.0). Old scenarios can be loaded without having to convert them beforehand if the underlying map has already been converted to the new format. That's why we do such an effort with the card installer, so at least all scenarios that are delivered with Steel Beasts, continue to run directly.
  • In spite of everything, I recommend loading old scenarios in the editor and then saving them again. The file size will generally shrink drastically because embedded map data and old navmeshes are no longer needed. Scenario sizes below 1.5 MB become normal.

https://forum.steelbeasts.org/forum/thread/8656-steel-beasts-pro-pe-version-4-1-vorbestellen/?postID=59299#post59299
Translated using Google Translate:
Quote from: Ssnake
On the subject of card conversion under the special condition that you have many own cards in use here:
Basically, it should suffice to convert only once the zugundeliegende height map and then all other editors as a published base map (new concept!) To provide.
That
  • Open the map editor
  • File ... Converting HGT ... Retrieve map, adjust metadata, save.
  • Then make immutable (by status "Published")
  • This map package (= a folder with subfiles) zipping, distribute here
  • All gardeners download this file, unpack the folder into the new map directory
  • Open the map editor
  • File ... Converting TER ... Now it is automatically recognized that the HGT file is already converted. As a result, each TER file can now be converted into the same directory as the space-saving delta card, which already contains the base card. These cards should also be published soon to save disk space; Also, only those scenarios based on a published map can be played in network or single mode at all.
The many variations of the associated terrain map can then be redistributed as delta maps. This raises the question, "how to distribute?". It was easy in the past. The map data was in the scenario, the host could send the scenario (and with it the map data) to all clients at the beginning of the session. This sometimes took a long time when many subscribers were aware that the scenario was large due to the embedded map data and the host might not have the best internet connection.

Since high-resolution map data in particular can require a lot of memory, this distribution mechanism is no longer practical. Disciplined groups will certainly be able to distribute all necessary files via a forum / web server to all participants at scheduled meetings. In reality, there's always at least one Kevin messing up and then stopping everyone else. So what do you do?

Steel Beasts behaves in the following way:
The client connects to the host, the host sends the scenario file as usual. Steel Beasts now checks whether the map referenced in the scenario exists locally. If so, it will be read in, the client will go to the meeting room and can choose his page and the associated unit as usual. If not, Steel Beasts automatically connects to a map server and downloads the map data from there. So Kevin keeps the place, but not so bad. Nobody has to look for the link in the chat or explain to Kevin how to use a browser where you might have to log in. (Oh no, no user account has been set up yet ... that may take longer today ...).


Now the highlight:
Of course, even the eSim Games Mapserver will never be able to stock every single card ever created by somebody (or will be created). But: In autumn we will probably bring a first patch for 4.1, in which you can set up yourself a map server (eg on the gameserver in the data center, which you already have), and then everyone can register their address in Steel Beasts , Steel Beasts will then query multiple servers in the order you can set. Of course you should not enter hundreds of addresses there, but three, four, a dozen should already be feasible, without the waiting times are too long.
This allows community-own map servers are built, which are independent of eSim Games (but can be operated in supplement)

And after the Steel Beasts client has downloaded the map from the mapserver (it is automatically unpacked and pushed into the correct directory), Kevin can enter the meeting room. It only depends on how good his Internet connection is.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 30, 2019, 06:24:46 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/16/?tab=comments#comment-191614
Quote from: Ssnake
Well, usually I try to, but then I found myself in a race with Grenny. ;)
So, this time the bulk of relevant new developments has been revealed. There's still odds and end, and what's more important, I might find the time to work on the one or other tutorial related to the new data structure of maps, and what it means for certain aspects of the user interface. But I suppose I should work on the release notes first. About 104 pages of changelog have accumulated. I can condense that to maybe 80 pages by reducing the font size to 9.5 pt and there are probably a number of entries that are entirely irrelevant, but it's going to take a while.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on June 30, 2019, 08:31:29 PM
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4480764/re-news-about-version-4-1#Post4480764
Quote from: Woofie_Dog
So no new playable tanks??....kinda under whelming for three years of not having any upgrades and not getting a terrain patch.Yes there are some nice things,and the price IS equal to the task,but I really expected /hoped for more.At the very least a thermal equipped OPFOR tank or finished ones we already have(ie chally 2).I bought the upgrade regardless but I'm unimpressed so far.Just seems kinda lean compared to previous upgrades which were on a yearly basis(they were yearly right???haven't checked that for sure.) I think I would have preferred to pay the full 40$ upgrade for more playable tanks TBH,but that's your call.

EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more I realize that a counter argument might be made regarding the new non playable content BUT as someone who has made game content in other sim's "without any prior knowledge" of modeling and has produced content in a mater of days/weeks (tanks for arma for example) is the reason I made the comments that I did.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 01, 2019, 01:10:02 AM
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4480805/re-news-about-version-4-1#Post4480805
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Woofie_Dog
So no new playable tanks?
This upgrade isn't about new playable vehicles specifically even though it has a number of them, most notably the DF90 and the DF30 (just in case you missed them, although the way you phrased your post sounds as if you're deliberately omitting them to prove your point). But if your definition of "tank" is narrowly focused on MBTs or tracked armored vehicles, then No, there aren't any with crew positions.
Quote from: Woofie_Dog
kinda under whelming for three years of not having any upgrades and not getting a terrain patch
Yeah... terrain "patch"...
That task ... ballooned slightly. Which I thought was kinda obvious given the fact that it took us three years, but maybe we integrated everything so well that it betrays the unsuspecting eye what effort went into all this.
  • High-res terrain means, the grid resolution was increased by a factor of 512, the render resolution even by factor 2048.
    At the same time the map file sizes increased only by a factor of maybe 10...15, and we could shrink the typical scenario file size by a factor of 20.
    And we maintained the ability to edit and modify maps for mission designers with only minimal restrictions. That alone cost one programmer almost six years of work.
  • We rewrote the whole lighting code for the render engine, and had to replace every single piece of vegetation artwork in the terrain, and then add a fair bit of new models. This allows representing a far wider range of climate zones/landscape types - like sub-saharan Africa. It looks a lot better. We increased the frame rates, SB Pro PE is very playable now with visibilty set to 7...10 kilometers.
    Hint: Typically frame rates develop in the opposite direction with version updates.
  • High-res terrain required an entirely different approach to vehicles; we had to add a suspension model that not only works for the player's tanks, or 20...30 tanks as you would typically see in a racing game. It had to be made to work for several ten thousand vehicle entities to accommodate the needs of some of our military customers. When we shopped around at a simulation-centric exhibition for 3rd party solutions boasting "high performance suspension code" that was supposedly "suitable for large number of entities" -- they meant "up to 100". When we told them "we need it for several 10,000" they visibly paled and became very quiet.
    But we did it anyway. It may not look like much, and yes, the benefit for you is maybe not very high, but our work is dictated by far wider ranging needs. Our team is less than a tenth of that of Bohemia Interactive (since you brought up ArmA III as an example) and still we get things done where others fail miserably.
  • A suitable suspension model for all vehicles was only part of the ripple effect that a change in the terrain engine caused. We also had to replace the driving code for all vehicles, which was a bloody nightmare because it was 20 years old and touched everything. Which means that when you rewrite it, you introduce "refactoring bugs" everywhere that must be found and killed quickly before your changes destroy the entire product. But we took that risk because it was the prerequisite for better pathfinding and better AI behavior. Units are no longer water-shy, but they don't drown themselves as often anymore either. And it works down to a framerate of about eight, because we have customers with scenarios so large ... well, see above.
  • Right, the terrain isn't just high-res now, it's also deformable at runtime. So engineer vehicles can now dig vehicle emplacements. We can crater the landscape. This opens the path for a lot of nice feature improvements in the future.
  • Next up, the new model for high explosive and fragmentation effects. Which tracks up to 20,000 individual fragments per explosion, in real-time, and puts everything on a solid engineering foundation (which it was not, up to now). This will improve the quality of simulation results enormously in the coming years as we refine the parameterization, and further boost the performance in subsequent development steps.
I know of no other simulation even in the professional military field that combines the capabilities of Steel Beasts in a remotely comparable way. There may be specialized applications that can do individual things somewhat better, but none that can do everything, and do it on a single PC, let alone at a comparable price point. And I'm not alone in that assessment. We've worked with research labs that used Steel Beasts for experimentation purposes because there was no other tool that offered both the breadth of scope and the high degree of fidelity in simulation results. None.

Yes. No playable new MBT. I'm sorry. We were kinda busy the last years.

As far as the confusion about the terrain is concerned, the "DTED is dead" video was meant to illustrate the capabilities of our new terrain engine. But the terrain data on which this was based is not available for public distribution, so we can't include it in the coming release. Sorry, no Danish sand dunes for you, we don't have the rights for it. But you will get one or two maps from Finland that are based on LIDAR scans; slightly less in resolution but still much better than anything that was available in the past. And one from BAOR's Sennelager area, Germany.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 01, 2019, 04:55:49 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/4546-steel-beasts-content-wish-list/page/250/?tab=comments#comment-191691
Quote from: Ssnake
However, all our work on rewriting the driving code to apply pathfindig also to vehicles are preparatory steps towards the end goal of being able to give movement orders to company sized formations without having to use the kludges like group routes, or the route copy and paste function. It is however something that requires a lot of work to introduce it into a 20 year-old code base (without creating a lot of critical bugs, that is).

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/16/
Quote from: Ssnake
I meant that all the map data must be in the same parent folder (you can't distribute them over different drives). Other than that, they are independent from the Steel Beasts installation.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12891-41-upgrade-with-american-express/?tab=comments#comment-191666
Viper1970 only wants to pay via PayPal or his girlfriend's American Express card. This is the culmination of his frustration.
Quote from: Viper1970
Don't blame eSim for this, don't blame eSim for that, come on now. It's a company that want's to sell a product, but there is only one single option to buy it and this option is also restricted. It's not the the job of the customer to find a way that makes him possible to buy the product the company is selling. Normally it's the other way arround.
Quote
There is another way to buy and its been offered to you at least twice (by myself and others).
What another way? To do an international bank transfer to someone of the community? Sorry but's not an option for me. What's then with the next upgrade you have to pay for again? Maybe 4.185 or so? This whole crazy business again!?

I'm really willing to spent money for my hobby and yes, SB is the only modern tank sim at the moment, but I really never came along such a ridiculous way to simply pay for a product. Even a very small software company, I bought a boot manager from the last days, offers fourtimes as much payment options as eSim does.

If esim only want's to sell SBPE to sellected people which do anything to achieve their condition of payment , or it's not needed to sell it, cause it's just a hobby and there is no real need to sell it to the private user (I also have heard this argument here) then it's ok. It eSim's decision.

I have tons of other simulations I'm really not able to play all of them the rest of my lifetime, so no real need for me to absolutely must have SBPE.

If there will be another way to pay for it in future, I maybe will come back. If not SB is history for me. It could also be possible that another modern tank sim will see the light of day sometime and for this case eSim should really consider to be a bit more customer-friendly. I'm not the only one which isn't very exited with the practise of eSim at the moment. You just have to read in other forums.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12891-41-upgrade-with-american-express/?tab=comments#comment-191674
Quote from: Ssnake
If traditional distribution parners were paying their bills, we'd still be selling SB Pro through them. If other web shops in Europe that we contacted about selling our product get back to us, we will sell SB Pro through them. It's not like we're stubbornly refuse to sell Steel Beasts through other channels than our own web shop.
But I have a gazillion people tugging at my shirt about whether there'll be additional videos, when can we expect 4.1, when are the release notes ready, will it be this month, I get error messages from the web shop, are we there yet, ... and one person who insists on using his girlfriend's Amex card. I do my best. If that's not good enough for you, I'm sorry.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12891-41-upgrade-with-american-express/?tab=comments#comment-191684
 ::)
Quote from: Gibsonm
No worries.

I offered, but you seem determined to "throw your toys out of the cot". I'm not concerned.

Have a good life.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 01, 2019, 11:35:58 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12874-steel-beasts-pro-pe-version-41-pre-orders-now-being-accepted/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-191718
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Rangoon
I purchased the upgrade license only. Is there a way to upgrade from 4.0 to 4.1 without having 4.023 installed?
Absolutely, it's an independent installation. We actually recommend uninstalling version 4.0 first.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 02, 2019, 04:28:23 PM
DF90 now has a Steel Beasts Wiki page: http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php?title=Piranha_DF90
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 10, 2019, 03:03:39 PM
From the Steel Beasts forum:
Quote from: Ssnake
Okay, I can now confirm that 4.1 Release Day will be
  • not before Monday 22nd
  • probably on Wednesday 24th
  • no later than Monday 29th
Final build will be this week, then there's one week for final tests and production of the bundles, commissioning the bundles, shipping.

Quote from: Ssnake
In the original Steel Beasts and up to about 2015 or so we treated all vehicles as "rigid body point masses", that is, the model slides over the terrain (animated roads and tracks betray the human eye that the're sliding, of course). With a terrain that had a mesh width of 12.5m, slightly wider than the body of the tank, and some movement rules to adjust the position of the vehicle when transitioning from one angle to a new one (e.g. let the tank dip slightly into the terrain as to fake inertia, then accelerate it more up to the point of the greatest divergence between terrain normal vector and tank hull bell normal vector) you could fake relatively well the way how an actual suspension would behave, so the demand for an actual suspension model was rooted primarily in cosmetics, not functional necessity.

Now, a tank's movement in the 3D space can be looked at as a wave motion, if you just look at the angular deviation from a perfectly level resting position. With a given maximum travel velocity for a tank the resulting was sufficiently life-like, both in amplitude and frequency. But as soon as the underlying terrain's mesh width becomes smaller than the tank body, this simple model no longer works; mathematically it fails because over the length of the body you may have more than two reference surfaces, and functionally because the rigid body physics can no longer gradually adjust to a shifting underground. You get a wave motion that simply has a way too high frequency, the vehicle "rattles over the terrain". (That's the "doesn't cope" part you were asking about.)

At that point you have to implement a model of vehicle suspension that can handle a situation where the terrain mesh with is close to the diameter of a road wheel, and then you use each roadwheel's deviation from its equilibrium position to accelerate the actual hull (and while you're at it, you then might also have distributed masses for hull, turret, and gun assembly, as well as for consumables like fuel and ammo). But obviously, if you have 14 coupled springs and five connected mass points, the resulting calculations (a differential equation) are a tad more complicated, and then you don't just want it for one vehicle but "all of them", and then some customers tell you that the only reason they're using SB Pro is because it can handle large battles, and among them is one customer who doesn't need much fighting, but they're simulating a road traffic, and they need all ten extra parties to their maximum unit limit to populate the world with barely enough vehicles to create a credible environment for "the" student (in this case, indeed one single guy acting the role of a convoy leader in a simulator cabin, driving for four to eight hours in a single session, coupled to a bigger exercise where the convoy's location is updated by battlefield management system).

So, while the suspension thing in itself isn't entirely trivial, it's not an entire mystery either. The kicker is, you need a solution that works for several ten thousand entities that all drive around the map at the same time. And as it turned out, available commercial solutions couldn't handle that load, so we had to devise something of our own. I ... allow myself to be proud of the team here. That challenge wasn't entirely trivial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HH1e9cfPeA
Also from the Steel Beasts forum:
Quote from: Ssnake
Actually, I think we made F8 available generally. While we acknowledge the potential for exploit, that's also the matter of usability if you have no way to control the vehicle except indirectly through the map.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 10, 2019, 08:41:26 PM
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Gibsonm
I think the key thing to remember is that this will not be universal, at least to begin with.

Not every map with have the new, finer mesh, as it depends on the underlying source data.
Well, the "Africa" video was based on an old Steel Beasts map in 12.5m resolution that we converted, then modified. Still looks better than before, IMO.
The Finnish Summer Day videos are based on a map generated from 2m resolution LIDAR data, which primarily can be seen at the road bend after which the mine obstacle begins. The cut into the hill slope wasn't procedurally generated, it's original source data. So that's the kind of quality differences that can be observed. But the "wringkling" of the surface that can be seen on both maps is a function of the terrain theme's "bumpiness" values for the individual terrain type.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: wilso845 on July 10, 2019, 09:12:54 PM
Looking forward to this release as I thoroughly enjoyed the mission on Sunday 👍
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 10, 2019, 10:17:01 PM
Looking forward to this release as I thoroughly enjoyed the mission on Sunday 👍
Thanks. :howdy

Quote from: Ssnake
IMO, the worst that can happen to you is that you might waste disk space in moderate amounts if you convert every map that you have as a base map.
All the legacy maps that we had with Steel Beasts 4.0 and before we originally feared might be up to 500 GByte, then we added compression and thought "maybe only 50 GByte" and now it turns out "just 14 GByte". Which is still a bit more than the maybe 600 MByte in map data that SB 4.0 would install but in the light of the average computer game these days it's still not as dramatic as we originally feared it would be. Which means, a moderate amount of waste is still wasteful, but not such a big deal after all.
Okay, "my" folder of map packages is already 80 GBytes large (thanks to a number of experimental maps from customers that we copied over for debugging/performance tests, so some inflation is bound to happen over time. But that's not related to the map conversion issues.

Interactive map conversion comes with relatively comfortable and error-preventing wizards that should navigate most pitfalls for you. But ideally you would tale a look at the maps that are "yours" first and check which of them are based on the same height map. Then convert the HGT file first. Afterwards you'd convert al the TER variants are are based on the same HGT, and they would be stored as delta maps. Publish them, done. At least in a first step. Then open the scenarios that use these maps, save them again (maybe under a new name), done.

At some point you may then want to experiment with the new features such as road leveling. In which case you'd craete new delta maps of the existing ones, and then gradually replace the old maps with the new ones where you may have altered the terrain profile. It's not THAT dramatically different from how you do it right now, but with more safety features to prevent user error, at the expense of a few new concepts such as "published maps" vs maps that can still be edited.

But Yes: The Release Notes and the user manual will cover these topics.

Quote from: DarkAngel
It's a case of clicking one of 2 buttons and waiting for the result. The main thing most people will need to do is update their themes. Because bumpiness was not previously rendered people used a higher level of bumpiness than works with the new engine.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 10, 2019, 10:29:07 PM
Quote from: Ssnake
Speaking of THM files, these are the issues that I'm seeing over and over again which should be corrected,
  • Avoid "0" and "1.0" settings.
  • Bumpiness "0" is the Utah Salt Flats, which you find in exactly one place, Utah. And there, only on the salt flats. Bumpiness "1.0" means the coarsest terrain you can think of. Like the boulder fields on the flanks of alpine mountains. Where mountain goats are having trouble. Wheeled offroad vehicles should handle up to 40% bumpiness. Anything above that value would be considered "extremely difficult" with "mobility risk" (even if such a setting by itself will not incur that risk in Steel Beasts). Tracked vehicles may be able to handle up to 80% bumpiness, but that should normally be considered the end of the rope, really. Like, crawling speed at full throttle, or something.
  • Traction "1.0" is the equivalent of hot rubber on hot asphalt. That's a rare condition in nature.
  • Dustiness "1.0" is "Afganistan", "Gobi", or "Atacama" desert. The kind where you open sealed plastic containers and you still find dust inside. "0" is a wet swamp. Any other place on earth is somewhere between these two extremes. Dry grassland might be around 40%. And of course, if you have "0" and "1.0" dustiness right next to each other it makes for very awkward dust development when you drive around. A transition from 20% to 40% on the other hand is a natural and quite benign effect.
  • Hardness should rarely exceet 0.95. Hardness "1.0" is when you don't dig emplacements and foxholes, but you dynamite them, and you need several attempts. Seriously, if it's 95...100% hardness we're talking about different forms of rock. Maybe limestone is just 95% compared to granite at 100%, but it's rock nevertheless. So the terrain texture should also reflect that, if you want to be consistent. So 94% hardness is the kind of concrete-like substance into which fine mud might dry. Realistically, "hard" ground would be closer to 80...90% hardness. And a freshly tilled field would probably be like 40% hardness. A shifting sand dune might be 10%.
  • Think of combinations. If it's rock, and really hard, and super bumpy, can it still have a high traction value? Can a watery swamp offer 100% traction? Of course not. Nor could that sand dune of 10% hardness and 90% dustiness. And in all these cases the ground resistance must go up as well. Conversely, if it's supposed to offer high traction, low drag, what type of terrain can it actually be? If super flat and super hard, we're back at the Utah Salt Flats. Yes, they exist in nature, but they are a rare occurrence. "World famous" rare, actually.
  • Approach it functionally. If you know that 30% of your map are going to be terrain X and you want it to be traversable by offroad wheeled vehicles it shouldn't have more than 40% bumpiness, it still must offer decent traction (maybe in the 75...85%), the bumpier the higher the drag, so if you settle for a 30% bumpiness value that means it's already pretty difficult, and the drag might be in the 25% range, possibly even higher. Oh yeah, that'll slow everybody down. People will hate that. But it'd be realistic for your average "scrub" terrain, or a particularly knobby grassland. On the other hand, if its farm land, the bumpiness tends to go down, and you don't set up a farm on rocks. So it's got to be relatively soft and low bumpiness terrain. Not every possible combination actually makes sense. Ideally you'd have unity of mobility factors and visual representation, in which case you should pick a fitting texture, and give the terrain type a descriptive name.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 11, 2019, 12:55:46 AM
Camo options revealed:
Quote from: DarkAngel
Hopefully I am not treading on Nil's toes or exposing secrets he is keeping for later... If so sorry. This is a great feature in the mission editor and will stop a lot of confusion
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 12, 2019, 05:17:54 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/19/?tab=comments#comment-192145
Quote from: Volcano
Quote from: Apocalypse 31
I think those days are gone, or probably far off. Most of what we're getting is for military customers. Maybe I'm wrong.
Yes, that is wrong.   We spent two years laying down plumbing here. Once everything is fundamentally in order, then of course we will want to go back to making fun stuff, from time to time.

Also, the military didn't request more detailed crew served weapons. This was one of our 'pet projects'. Don't forget that (most of the) Steel Beasts developers also play it too.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/19/?tab=comments#comment-192150
This list looks impressive at first glance, but these vehicles are only a small fraction of the motor pool, and the whole list gives the impression of asking us to believe that the military clients hardly request anything beyond the occasional vehicle. This is the latest symptom of a real credibility problem for eSim Games. Ssnake is asking us to believe that there's no "enthusiast vs. military" mindset when the military clients get continuous updates for their copies of the PE version, while civilians don't, and the military clients still get the overwhelming majority of development, despite the whole "disproportionate development time invested in PE" mantra that Ssnake loves to repeat. This is just adding to him asking us to believe in the existence of a military customer base that hardly ever reports a bug despite having far more users than the enthusiast community.
Quote from: Ssnake
  • None of our military customers requested the playable
    • T-55,
    • T-62,
    • T-72,
    • BMP-2,
    • BTRs,
    • Challenger 2,
    • Scimitar,
    • Warrior,
    • M1,
    • M1IP,
    • M1A2 SEP,
    • M60A3,
    • Sho't Kal,
    • GTK Boxer,
    • Marder 1A3,
    • Luchs A2,
    • Fuchs,
    • HEMMT,
    • HMMVW,
    • Unimog,
    • Ural-4320,
    • 2.7t 4x4 Technical-F,
    • M88A1,
    • M901,
    • M577,
    • BRDM-2
  • None of our military customers requested the new HE model.
  • None of our military customers requested the new terrain engine.
  • None of our military customer directly requested the new AI; like everybody else they had isolated issues with behavior in specific situations, but it was our decision to move away from the state machine approach with discrete behavioral rules.

These were all common projects/investments that eSim Games made completely autonomous. The idea that there's an "us" (PE users) vs. "them" (military customers) is corrosive, and absolutely not supported by the facts. Only the profits made with military contracts allowed us to work on the important issues. Without military contracts you would have no Personal Edition, or at least none past version 2.4 maybe. So can we please leave this debate behind us, once and for all.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 14, 2019, 12:07:01 AM
Matsimus is livestreaming Steel Beasts 4.1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O36Cs-mZZ_w
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 14, 2019, 12:17:48 AM
Matsimus' frame rate was low because he wasn't using the latest patch. Here's a regiment-size battle in the newest preview from Ronin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSBx0R_pZu0
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 14, 2019, 12:52:20 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/19/?tab=comments#comment-192204
I have to say that I agree with Ssnake and Apocalypse.
Quote from: Apocalypse 31
Quote from: Ssnake
He didn't apply patch 6, might explain the low frame rate.
(sigh)
Unfortunate. He generates a ton of viewers, and this is not representative of the final product.

Maybe he can pull the video? There's not much out there on 4.1 and this will probably dominate YouTube content before release.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/19/?tab=comments#comment-192207
Quote from: Apocalypse 31
Quote from: Marko
i thought it ran ok
We will agree to disagree on this.

Edit.
In less than an hour he has 1300 people viewing a video of SB 4.1 running at 20 FPS.

Good marketing? I think not.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 14, 2019, 01:37:38 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/19/?tab=comments#comment-192209
Quote from: Ssnake
Well, I suppose that's the risk of handing a beta version to a Youtuber even if the email had clear instructions how to apply the patch. And people wonder why I'm holding back everything to the last minute. That's why.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/20/?tab=comments#comment-192218
Quote from: Apocalypse 31
The unfortunate part is that all of Grenny's videos combined are only 2x as much as @matsimus generated in a single hour of streaming.
Quote from: Ssnake
Exactly.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 14, 2019, 02:11:34 AM
From the comments of Matsimus' YouTube video:
Quote from: Ssnake
Well, that was a bit unfortunate.
I suspect that the frame rate decay could have been eliminated with the application of the patch to that beta version, and trying to fix that with a laggy chat while a dozen others try to help at the same time was probably doomed from the beginning. Hopefully we'll get that sorted out before the next video.

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/20/?tab=comments#comment-192229
Nothing new in terms of units, we knew about all of them prior to this. But this list of vehicles is incomplete.
Quote from: Breakthrough7
Not sure if these two features have been mentioned before explicitly (scouts were ~implied) but I noticed:
1) a new class of Infantry "Scout Team"
(https://www.steelbeasts.com/uploads/monthly_2019_07/infteams.jpg.fbd5894cb6bdf1a4d7da8c54b0603f0e.jpg)

2) the individual 'vehicle icons' now display, in the editor, overlayed with unit icons.
(https://www.steelbeasts.com/uploads/monthly_2019_07/vehicleicons.jpg.b10c6c91b84dc646ad58e9c48dd5c3b4.jpg)

And for good measure (though certainly not complete);
(https://www.steelbeasts.com/uploads/monthly_2019_07/viclist.jpg.b4ca50f99861eec7afe4f6ae4aaa489e.jpg)

Ronin's newest preview video, this one is dedicated to seeing how well Steel Beasts runs with a battalion-sized mission with 3 parties:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X2A5VAs5aQ
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 14, 2019, 03:34:57 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/21/?tab=comments#comment-192243
Apocalypse's statement is striking home for me, considering that I've pointed out that the majority of Steel Beasts' default maps will not see any improvement in terrain resolution.
Quote from: Apocalypse 31
Quote from: Gibsonm
the average YouTube watcher
You would be surprised at how many current, active SB players who think they're going to fire up 4.1 and see a whole new game (terrain-wise).
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 14, 2019, 04:01:28 AM
At time index 1:45:28 in Matsimus' video, there is a version of the Fennek called Fennek SWP. It does not correspond to any previously known Fennek variant. I wonder what it is? Also, I made a mistake: I did not know that the Fennek TACP had not yet been announced.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 14, 2019, 02:31:16 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/21/?tab=comments#comment-192253
Quote from: Ssnake
Quote from: Apocalypse 31
Yeah but this video doesn't have the same intensity as the bad FPS video. This also isn't showcasing the new terrain: terrain is as flat as a pool table and has no clutter detail.

The highlight of this patch is the terrain, yeah? Videos should be promoting the hell out of it.
I suspect that the video absolutely is comparable, assuming that the reason for the frame rate decay in Matsimus' streamed video is the fact that without the patch applied old particles don't get removed from the queue, and therefore clog the graphics card. That happens with a lot of dust or without; in fact, Grenny's video is probably more CPU intensive than what Matsimus bashed together in his zero preparation stream.

Likewise, as far as the terrain goes, it's a matter of applying proper theme files and picking lighting that helps to accentuate the higher resolution. If the terrain theme has near-zero bumpiness for most of the terrain, it will look flat and the vehicle suspension won't show much activity. Consequently, if there are no bumps they cannot be shaded according to the sun position. And if 12:00 o'clock (or sunset) is chosen as the time of day the terrain won't create much variation in the lighting, as shown in the Africa video that I made a few weeks ago.

I'm not an NDA wielding control freak when it comes to releasing videos past the point where I break the silence. Which means you get the full truth, even if it's not representative of the best possible results, or even downright misleading in a case where a certain patch is not applied as explicitly instructed.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 14, 2019, 05:34:14 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/21/?tab=comments#comment-192277
Quote from: Ssnake
We'll describe this in depth in the Release Notes.
Which I intend to publish some time this week.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 14, 2019, 09:06:16 PM
I just noticed that the MB 240GD (which is already in Steel Beasts) will be crewable in 4.1, based on the list of trucks that was posted earlier.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 15, 2019, 04:16:11 AM
I forgot to mention, the playable MB 240GD will be another vehicle to check off my wish list.

Matsimus took down the live stream and issued this post: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/21/?tab=comments#comment-192290
Quote from: Matsimus
Ok, so I don't come on here often to debate and chat on the forums as I have seen where it can go sometimes. But when people are privately contacting me telling me that people are calling me out, I'm a little taken back.

Firstly, SSnake, if you have a concerns with my stream and my:

"Matsimus bashed together in his zero preparation stream." or the fact I did not have a patch installed "even downright misleading in a case where a certain patch is not applied as explicitly instructed."

then maybe come speak to me and tell me that. I have worked hard to assist trying to sell your product and promote this community. Little shocked to see that kind of dialogue coming to light.

Secondly, as I mentioned in the beginning of the stream, the stream was not there to showcase the new update but merely INFORM people it was close to coming out and that I had started to take a look at it. I did not want to disclose too much for a few reasons. I just wanted to play the game and even said that MANY times as per 4.0. The reasons I did not want to focus on the updates are:

- I had been away from SB Pro for some time and therefore had not been able to get fully settled back into the game. Sadly I don't have the time to relearn the game heavily. Maybe I have always sucked, I will accept that.
- Just like a kid at Xmas I wanted to ensure the community had the chance to be excited and be in a place where things were not spoiled
- I was out of respect wanting to make sure I did not misinform the community of the features as I don't do well reading from a list of features and then explaining them if I did not make them
- The stream was meant to PROMOTE THE GAME. Not showcase the update. And considering the number of people watching (250 or so) and the questions being asked about where to buy it.....I think I succeeded.
- I knew that if I showcased things that I got wrong, things like this would happen, and the community would be upset. Which clearly from the sounds of it....some are.
- Finally I wanted to ensure that the people watching the stream focused on the fact that its not all about serious tactics and strategy. Its nice to enjoy the game in a way where I am not being called out for making a wrong move or decision. Its called fun and that's what I do when I come on to play games. Enjoy them. Hell, I could of spent 3 hours talking about how I would create my battle plan and discuss the AAR etc etc. But guess what, most people want to watch interesting game-play. Not tactics which they can learn as they play with us as a community.

I have done NOTHING but love this game and respect those who play it in this community. It seems like maybe I am doing something wrong where people don't agree. Fair enough, this is a open forum and I appreciate criticism. The FPS were not fixed with the patch, to me its not a big deal......its a game, it will get sorted one way or another. I installed everything again, reinstalled, removed the game completely and reset. No change, I was losing FPS. My computer is not a potato either. But I find it fascinating that I am being called out for it by so many.

Its safe to say that future updates and showcasing of this game will not be coming towards me. I accept that and understand that maybe it was not the best introduction to 4.1. Is that my fault? Maybe. But I'm not sure coming here to light me up about it is the best option.

Lots of YouTubers can be given this update and game and showcase it for you guys. I would welcome that they do it. As clearly I am not doing things right.

Lets hope future content I produce for SB pro is up to your standards.

Regards

Matt J
Matsimus

To be honest, I think Ssnake messed up and sent Matsimus the wrong folders in the patch RAR file (4.155 instead of 4.155.006), because he eventually seemed to get the install right. Also, here's Matsimus' newest Steel Beasts 4.1 video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_1QqZsWMws
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cougar11 on July 15, 2019, 05:50:15 AM
I personally did not like the stream, especially for the comments, questions, etc that detracted from showcasing the game. From what little he talks about in the aftermath, it seems like the usual troll, hater, and toxic community that is far too common with those on the SB forum.
I especially laughed at the assassin7 stream comments gloating and boasting about the M1A2SEP detail. Sounds like nothing had changed there.
I was hoping to see something spectacular, or at least something that sparked my interest again, but with the lack luster steam that I turned off soon after first contact and frame rate issues, and the confirmation of the toxicity that comes with the SB community, I still will not be coming back to the game at this time.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Frankie on July 15, 2019, 08:11:24 AM
Just wanna say that the forums and posts by the friendly gaming Community on DOWVU are a blast of healthy, invigorating and fresh air. They make my day...any day.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: wilso845 on July 15, 2019, 10:06:52 AM
Only reason I kept my license going is purely because members of DoW, play the missions.
Due to my ill health it hasn’t been as possible as I would have liked it to be, but I did mange a mission with Rinix and Oleg last Sunday.
Even though it had been a while it was a great mission and I’d forgotten how tense it can be 😂.

So I will continue my license. I also do not engage the community forum, due to its toxicity and elitism.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Cougar11 on July 15, 2019, 12:37:05 PM
Just wanna say that the forums and posts by the friendly gaming Community on DOWVU are a blast of healthy, invigorating and fresh air. They make my day...any day.
Yes here is definitely nothing like the SB forum and community.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 16, 2019, 03:05:16 AM
Just wanna say that the forums and posts by the friendly gaming Community on DOWVU are a blast of healthy, invigorating and fresh air. They make my day...any day.
Just wanna say that the forums and posts by the friendly gaming Community on DOWVU are a blast of healthy, invigorating and fresh air. They make my day...any day.
Yes here is definitely nothing like the SB forum and community.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


You both said it.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4482959/re-news-about-version-4-1#Post4482959
Quote from: Ssnake
For the bigger scenarios, CPU limitation would be more typical I'd say. I don't know what your budget is; while we're gradually implementing more parallelization in the coming years it's still not something that will happen fast; to that extent it's probably still valid to favor CPUs which, for the same price, offer a bit more single thread performance. But where this might really become noticeable the CPU prices are also pretty high, so this may be an entirely academic debate for you.
Personally I'd be tempted to try out the new AMD CPUs combined with a matching AMD GPU, and be it just to send a message to Intel to get their act together. Their price levels appear to be very attractive.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 18, 2019, 12:52:50 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/20/?tab=comments#comment-192462
Quote from: Ssnake
Habemus candidatus emittandus - version 4.156

With this version we have essentially stopped tinkering and trying to fix bugs. We're going to kick the tires until tomorrow (another all-nighter, yay...), then send it off for the USB stick production, and test it more thoroughly for another week. Getting here took us a few days longer than anticipated. Since we don't want to release immediately before a weekend (so we're ready to to support the initial peak in support cases), this means that release day will be Monday 29th.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 18, 2019, 03:22:59 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/20/?tab=comments#comment-192499
I think Ssnake is actually referring to the 16 GB map folder, since the installer itself should be released on the already announced release date.
Quote from: Ssnake
Yeah, we wanted to be ready in early July, but then a few last-minute bugs popped up, so we're only today ready to start the production of the USB sticks. On Monday at least the installation files will be available for download. If downloading 19 GByte is not an option for you then yes, there will be a delay before your shipment arrives.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: wilso845 on July 18, 2019, 03:27:22 PM
19gb download iv downloaded bigger 😂😂😂.....now to make room
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 20, 2019, 01:02:21 AM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/21/?tab=comments#comment-192583
Quote from: Ssnake
I've decided to cobble together some "scrapbook" video with bits and pieces that haven't been mentioned properly; I deliberately left a few juicy bits for another Youtuber but apparently that's not going to materialize.

Creating something that is properly story-driven would cost more time than I have though, and probably force me to make two videos - another one in Finland, and one in Africa, and you wouldn't then get to see other terrain themes. So I'm not doing that.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 20, 2019, 03:53:14 PM
A series of preview screenshots of new vehicle skins starting here: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/21/?tab=comments#comment-192612
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 21, 2019, 05:10:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JQpCEA9_tU
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 21, 2019, 06:10:02 PM
I also noticed the new chain-link fences, which I will be able to check off my wish list.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 22, 2019, 12:44:25 AM
The fences are actually cyclone wire mesh fences, but they're good enough for me to check chain-link fences off my wish list.

Also, discussion of round counter on the call for fire menu and a new camera animation tool, starting here: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/22/?tab=comments#comment-192685
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 23, 2019, 04:51:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_98xzYxKKs
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 23, 2019, 10:49:33 PM
Ronin does another preview video using a modification of the scenario that he used in the "Steelbeasts, tank regiment chargin" video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coQt47dg-lU
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 24, 2019, 03:00:20 PM
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12776-sb-pro-pe-41-new-features-and-stuff/page/24/?tab=comments#comment-192847
Quote from: Ssnake
The 10th and final official video tomorrow "afternoon" (GMT+2; about the same time as yesterday).
The map installer will be made available for download (and installation) on Thursday, too.
Title: Re: Steel Beasts Dynamic Terrain Will Come After New Terrain Engine
Post by: Rinix on July 25, 2019, 03:33:58 PM
This is the final official preview video for Steel Beasts 4.1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gosMOOYq9E

Also, 4.156 will be coming with an additional patch to fix bugs: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12978-download-page-query/