Dogs Of War Vu

Network of Friends => Schwerpunkt => World War II Europe 1939-1945 => Topic started by: sPzAbt653 on October 23, 2019, 08:20:41 PM

Title: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: sPzAbt653 on October 23, 2019, 08:20:41 PM
Thanks to Ron and his Wife for making an Operational Game, few if any of which seem to exist anywhere in the Computer Realm. I'm a boardgamer since Panzer Blitz and a computer gamer since Kampfgruppe on the C64. I have had AGW since 2006 but never gave it much effort as the UI was too difficult and took away from having a good gaming experience. Therefore, I was a little disappointed when I was looking into WWII-E and I read the three reviews that are posted here and found these UI comments in each of them:

'The user interface will be the greatest hurdle to overcome, it is unlike any other UI and really takes some
        work to get used to and will make some people pull their hair out.'
 'I can only hope that the user interface will catch up with the level of quality of all the other aspects of the game.'
         'The interface is unfortunately not at all intuitive – however, it’s not at all difficult to figure out.'

I wonder how this can be after all of these years? I might guess it is because of the one man team aspect that most of our niche of games encompass. As a general comment, no matter how good you are, you can't wear every hat successfully. I see ancient graphics and extended developer posts concerning scenario development. This is a quick indication of an issue. Why are there long standing UI issues that can be handled by the developer while the developer works on scenarios that can be handled by the public? It's not a good delegation of effort.

Perhaps no one here has offered help, or maybe the developer is not interested in assistance? Ok that is fine, but there is no need to ask for or accept help, all that we the public need is the ability and we will do, leave it to us. There are map makers and counter makers and scenario designers that can all make great improvements free of charge and no credit required [although a mention is always nice].

I looked in the Mod Section and there is nothing. Then I looked in the game files and I see why, there is pretty much nothing to mod, nothing for us to do while the developer spends time on things other than the skill that they bring to this game - coding. We need access to stuff then we can have counters for this century, and a UI for the Scenario Editor file, which will in turn bring in scenario designers, all of which will allow further development of the UI and hopefully a flexible Event Engine.

Ok enough of the rant, let's look at something in the next post that stands out.
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: sPzAbt653 on October 23, 2019, 08:24:04 PM
I can't figure out what the idea here is with these pop-ups, because of them you can't tell if the defender retreated or was eliminated, what the terrain under the units is, what units are in an attacking stack, and no matter where you move them they pop back to cover the combat area. I think it might be better if returned to the AGW behavior which was 'all units eligible to advance are highlighted in blue, click on a unit to advance, click on the combat hex to end/not advance'. No need for a popup.
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: schwerpt on October 24, 2019, 05:07:49 AM
Over the years, we have received both praise and raspberries for our user interface.  We have added many capabilities based on user input, and will continue to do so. The only conclusion I was ever able to draw is that each user has an ideal user interface, but that no one user interface satisfies everyone. Many times the conversation comes to why can't your games be like "Game X".  When I talk with the developer of "Game X", they tell me that their users ask why can't they be like Schwerpunkt games!

This is why I put together the YouTube video to show how easy the user interface is.  I really should do more of those, as the feedback was that it really helped many to understand the interface as opposed to reading text descriptions.

Hope this helps folks to better understand.
Ron
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: sPzAbt653 on October 24, 2019, 03:55:34 PM
I did watch the video a couple times, and watched it again while learning WWII-E. I recommend it for everyone, it can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjn0g24Vdu4&t=1198s

I won't be nitpicky about searching for my ideal interface. I know everyone is different and sometimes I like a different look at how to do something, it can be refreshing. What I will be pointing out are things that are obvious on this end. Eye movement, mouse clicks, hand movement. The things that we deal with for hours at a time should not be cause for strife if it can be avoided. Some are unnecessary and eliminating those will reduce the complaints. The previous post on the Advance Pop-Ups is a great example of a task requiring more clicks than necessary, while also creating confusion and dismay. I don't see how anyone can debate differently, but if they can I'm open to that debate.
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: Mere Nick on October 25, 2019, 01:48:38 PM
I find the interface pretty easy to work with.  I like the pop-up about what to advance because I don't always want all of the units to advance. 
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: sPzAbt653 on October 26, 2019, 01:37:37 AM
Hi Mere Nick, thanks for commenting! But we are not talking about a choice between All Units Advancing or a Pop-Up to Choose Which Units Advance, I don't know where you got that idea. To clarify, see the screen shot below [I have noticed that we need to click on some of these jpg's in order to view them in full size]. In this shot from AGW, the green unit with the Red Dot has been attacked and has retreated, the gray units that are eligible to advance are highlighted in blue. In this case, the player chooses which units to advance by clicking on each unit. The player may click on all some or none of the highlighted units, depending on which unit the player wants to advance into the hex [which contains the Combat Marker, which is another nice feature missing from WWII-E]. As you can see, this is clearly a better UI choice to the Pop-Up that is currently used in WWII-E.
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: Mere Nick on October 26, 2019, 02:13:06 AM
I got the idea because you showed a picture of a popup and seem to not like it.  I see what you mean by the the latest one you posted.  If that is what you are used to, I can see how doing it a different way could be a bother.  I've never seen it done the way you are showing.  That would bother me now that I'm used to Ron's way. 
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: sPzAbt653 on November 01, 2019, 02:02:40 AM
File > Open > Select Scenario by Filename > doesn't give me the Optional Rules Screen. It only comes up when choosing Select Scenario by Title. So for a modded or new scenario I can't pick Options or Method of Play. Am I missing how to do this?
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: ncc1701e on November 05, 2019, 03:57:04 PM
I agree that the UI needs few improvements. The usage of "Locked Operations" is helping but why not continue to enhance it by:

1. Selecting directly an unit with left clicking on it.
2. Switching the selection of units, in the same hex, by continuing to left click on the current stack of units.
3. Right click on the selected unit to select "Move to Attack" or "Move No Attack" or whatever, that will highlight directly all the possible hexes for the selected move.
4. Left click in the destination hex for the selected unit.


Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: ncc1701e on November 05, 2019, 04:05:23 PM
Ah and something funny with "Locked Operations"... I have selected "Ground Move to Attack" in my Combat phase and then I have clicked on "Next Phase".

The problem is that the locked operation was then still valid in the Deploy phase. As such, trying to select a Naval or an Air unit I was having an error each time saying me that I need to select a Ground unit.
Since the weather was mud, I have checked all the rules about mud in the manual. But, in fact, it was just the interface that I had to unlock.

Just, it just took me half a day to figure out what's wrong....

Maybe you can unlock any "Locked Operations" when phase are changing?

Thanks
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: ncc1701e on November 05, 2019, 05:46:57 PM
And just to add regarding the point about "Locked Operations", the fact that the "Ground Move to Attack" was still selected is allowing me to move ground units during the deploy phase.
I do not think this is the intent.

Cheers
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: sPzAbt653 on November 06, 2019, 10:15:17 AM
Hello G - yes, it is a small world, and the world of games like this is even smaller!

For me the Locking and Un-Locking of Operations quickly became tedious, so I stopped using it.

1. Selecting directly an unit with left clicking on it.
I can do this by choosing 'Top Unit Select' from the Right Click on Map Menu.

2. Switching the selection of units, in the same hex, by continuing to left click on the current stack of units.
This sounds like a great idea. Currently we have to hold down the Tab key, but it's not obvious why this extra step is necessary.

3. Right click on the selected unit to select "Move to Attack" or "Move No Attack" or whatever, that will highlight directly all the possible hexes for the selected move.
This is how it was in the prior AGW game. At first the new Control Panel seems like an improvement, but after playing it becomes apparent that the additional mouse movement necessary to reach the Command Panel is not good. Maybe this is why the Cursor Assist = ON is the default, but that option turns any game into an exercise in wackiness. Currently, right clicking on a selected unit brings up the same menu as right clicking on the map, which doesn't appear to be necessary. So maybe the right click on selected unit menu could be changed back to the AGW one.

4. Left click in the destination hex for the selected unit.
I'm not sure what you mean with this one.
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: sPzAbt653 on November 06, 2019, 10:23:09 AM
Move No Attack, then hit Dig-In, and the selected unit doesn't Dig-In. I know the unit is eligible to Dig-In because if I reselect it, then hit Dig-In, it will dig-in.
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: ncc1701e on November 07, 2019, 09:58:47 PM
Hello G - yes, it is a small world, and the world of games like this is even smaller!

Glad to be here then!

4. Left click in the destination hex for the selected unit.
I'm not sure what you mean with this one.

Yes sorry this is not clear. I just mean that once you have performed step 3 and selected the operation for your unit, left click in the destination hex of the operation to perform.
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: ncc1701e on November 07, 2019, 10:06:17 PM
Move No Attack, then hit Dig-In, and the selected unit doesn't Dig-In. I know the unit is eligible to Dig-In because if I reselect it, then hit Dig-In, it will dig-in.
Yep, reproducing the same thing.
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: ncc1701e on November 07, 2019, 10:10:10 PM
Select a ground unit:
1. click on Move to Attack, Ground Move to Attack is selected
2. click on Move No Attack, Ground Move No Attack is selected
3. click on Move to Exploit, Ground Move to Exploit is selected
4. click on Move No Attack, Ground Move No Attack is selected
5. click on Move to Attack, the ground unit is automatically unselected ???
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: ncc1701e on November 07, 2019, 10:17:00 PM
This one is funny.

In the deploy phase:
1. select a plane
2. select a Recon mission
3. go back in the panel on the upper right and select a Rebase mission

The airplane unit disappears from the map...
Title: Re: WWII-E UI and sundry
Post by: bigus on December 25, 2019, 12:55:41 AM
Hi Mere Nick, thanks for commenting! But we are not talking about a choice between All Units Advancing or a Pop-Up to Choose Which Units Advance, I don't know where you got that idea. To clarify, see the screen shot below [I have noticed that we need to click on some of these jpg's in order to view them in full size]. In this shot from AGW, the green unit with the Red Dot has been attacked and has retreated, the gray units that are eligible to advance are highlighted in blue. In this case, the player chooses which units to advance by clicking on each unit. The player may click on all some or none of the highlighted units, depending on which unit the player wants to advance into the hex [which contains the Combat Marker, which is another nice feature missing from WWII-E]. As you can see, this is clearly a better UI choice to the Pop-Up that is currently used in WWII-E.

I totally agree!
Advance after combat is a nightmare. Especially with large stacks and multiple hexes.
I have never played AGW but this method seems much cleaner and easier to see.

Cheers,