Dogs Of War Vu
Sim/Strategy/War => Steel Beasts Pro => Topic started by: Rinix on February 03, 2017, 06:41:55 PM
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Let’s discuss the pricing of Steel Beasts. I don’t see the price of $125 itself as a problem, since I don’t think it’s too expensive. But I do have a problem with its lack of economic rationale. Others seem to view the price itself as a problem, given that they feel the need to defend it.
Marko is just not convincing when he says that (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11293-why-the-price/?do=findComment&comment=167810)
Also sales volume plays a part.
If your selling thousands of copies you can well afford to reduce the cost of the finished product.
Cover your development costs and still make a profit.
Unfortunately SB is a niche product.
Also some potential new customers who think SB is over priced do not realise there buying ten years of upgrades.
The problem with that is that Steel Beasts now, and games in general now, are primarily digitally distributed. In fact, right now there is no DVD option in the eSimGames store. Overhead for PC gaming is relatively low due to the lack of physical copies to make and store. They’re not buying “ten years of upgrades,” whatever those are. They’re paying upfront the rough cost of 1 year of an MMO subscription, plus $40 periodically for upgrades to maintain multiplayer capability. And upfront cost is an incredibly powerful psychological force. If you don’t believe me, just watch this CSB safety video about DuPont’s fatal phosgene accident in 2010:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISNGimMXL7M
Mirzayev makes an unconvincing argument when he says that (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11293-why-the-price/?do=findComment&comment=167821)
Honestly, when compared to simulations of its caliber, Steel Beasts isn't that far off on pricing. For example, Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations retails for $80 (not including DLC, which is actually cheap at $2.99 a piece), Gary Grigsby's War in the East is $80, and all DLC pushed the price to $110. Both of these games are acknowledged as being top tier for their specific focal area, and both have relatively niche markets.
Also, the price is relative towards the market it is geared towards. Compare Pro PE's price of $125 to VBS2's civilian version price of $500 upon release of VBS3. I would say that Steel Beasts Pro PE is not overpriced for what it does, and for what it represents.
In addition to what I said above about digital distribution, the problem with that is that Steel Beasts is $125 even before the $40 upgrades, which are DLC on steroids that you either buy or get locked out of multiplayer. You can argue about how much more you get than conventional DLC for your $40, and you would have a valid case, but getting locked out of multiplayer if you don’t buy isn’t the best outcome. And the cost of the VBS2 civilian version likely reflects that the “civilian” version is meant for military personnel to work with in a more casual way, much as Steel Beasts Pro PE is also intended for. In that case, Bohemia Interactive charges that amount because the military market is willing to pay that amount, while the civilian market generally is not.
Rotar, I’ve got to disagree with you when you say that (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11293-why-the-price/?do=findComment&comment=167808)
I seem to remember reading that SB Pro PE generates the largest portion of their tech support issues even though we're a significantly smaller portion of their income.
Yes, Ssnake has mentioned that before and now. But what both of you are implying doesn’t make sense. Back in 2006, Ssnake said that (http://www.tanksim.com/topic15_sbp_interview.htm)
A standard classroom license for 10 PCs is $18,000.
I don’t know if their classroom license costs have changed, but $125 per Steel Beasts Pro PE copy sold + $40 upgrades doesn’t sound like much compared to $1,800 per Steel Beasts Pro copy sold + undoubtedly more expensive upgrades by military clients, and all of their military clients in total have a lot more people than the civilian enthusiast market currently provides. In short, it doesn’t sound like the current Steel Beasts Pro PE price model can compensate for increased tech support overhead in any meaningful way.
Neither can I think much of Nate Lawrence (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11293-why-the-price/?do=findComment&comment=167807) or RogueSnake (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11293-why-the-price/?do=findComment&comment=167828) in their statements using DCS and its DLC totaling over $800. Firstly, DCS DLC requires DCS World, which is free. Secondly, DCS DLC is so varied as to practically constitute whole new games. Buying DCS: Flaming Cliffs 3 and DCS: Combined Arms delivers similar, but not identical in detail, gaming experiences to buying Flaming Cliffs 3 and Steel Beasts. And Steel Beasts locks you into an armored warfare experience, whereas DCS allows you experiences ranging from WWII fighter aircraft to modern air combat to helicopters to basic ground warfare with air support. In short, the two of you are comparing apples and oranges.
Of course, all of you miss an important point that Ssnake himself admitted (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/7747-sb-future-direction/?do=findComment&comment=112979)
I will also admit that the original pricing structure was designed to set up a warning sign against impulse buyers. This was done to protect them and us from a big misunderstanding, that SB Pro PE would be something like "Quake on tracks", some egoshooter/action game. Steel Beasts Pro PE first and foremost is a training tool with which one can incidentally also have a lot of fun - if you are willing to accept the premise that it wasn't designed to be a fun game in the first place, but as a tool to support instruction of soldiers.
The literally very next post from ht-57 shows the psychology of the Steel Beasts community:
You may want to up the price of admission. In the "world of tanks" For a one year premium account its $95usd, couple that with an upper tier tank for $53usd
The Steel Beasts community is rather dysfunctional. It upholds a price that has no economic rationale and was designed to deter people, and even asks for it to be increased based on a game with an actual economic model that is designed to get people to spend lots of money without thinking about it.
I really don’t get Ssnake’s reasoning, given the wealth of Steel Beasts content on YouTube. Steel Beasts may be immersive to play, but to the ordinary gamer, watching an unedited round must be like watching paint dry. No one’s going to get the wrong impression these days. Thus, the $125 entry price results in Ssnake getting a wrong impression (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10664-we-love-videos/?page=2#comment-163242)
Some gaming channel a while ago generated about 100,000 views in three weeks ... which resulted in approximately 14 copies of SB Pro PE sold above the average during that time. So, given that the conversion rate of video view-to-purchase decision is close to .0001, videos tailored to a very specific audience that are supposed to generate more interest are almost guaranteed to fail their purpose.
Maybe if more enthusiast sales were the goal, and if the price wasn’t so high to begin with, then the conversion rate would have been higher. And why is he even talking about the conversion rate, given that he’s not spending a cent on community-generated videos?
All of this brings us back to the subject of the indie military games market. Last year, Rock Paper Shotgun did an article urging indie military game developers to cut prices on their old games (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/08/19/the-flare-path-slash-or-spurn/). The responses he got (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/08/26/the-flare-path-faustian-packed/) don’t help Ssnake at all. John Tiller’s normally valid response of actively supporting his titles doesn’t apply here, since he doesn’t have eSimGames’ military contracts as a primary source of income. Shrapnel Games’ response doesn’t apply here for the same reason, and adds a pointless tangent about how great it is that they can keep selling at these prices. Slitherine Group’s response looks the most impressive, but doesn’t hold up. They cite inelastic demand curves, thinking that this magically solves everything. It doesn’t, for the exact same reason that applies to the others: they don’t have eSimGames’ military contracts as a primary source of income.
The three developers that responded to Rock Paper Shotgun are part of the indie military games market, just like eSimGames. Which leads me to a side note about what these four developers do share in common. The indie military games market has a tiny audience, no interest in expanding its audience due to perceptions of the audience being tiny, and a tradition of supporting games over the long run. These create a high barrier to entry, and thus the indie military games market is what is known as an oligopoly. Oligopolies are subject to what are known as kinked demand curves, where the elasticity of demand can change sharply depending on price. This demonstrates that Slitherine Group doesn’t have a good grasp on economics. Furthermore, said oligopoly would erode if the market expanded its audience, since a larger audience would bring in more developers. With this, combined with the fact that oligopolies are more profitable than a relatively free market, they don’t have an economic interest in expanding the audience.
That’s before we even get into psychological motives, such as one of Slitherine Group’s own developers being accused of having paranoid personality disorder (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3312181&mpage=2&key=%EF%BF%BD#3313052); Ssnake’s already mentioned intention to keep out impulse buyers; or when all else fails the “this is the way we’ve always done it/not invented here” mentality.
In conclusion, don’t try to defend Steel Beasts’ price. It doesn’t need defending, since it isn’t intended to be defendable at all. Its rationale is psychological and has nothing to do with economics, roughly matching the rest of PC gaming, or growing the audience.
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100% agreed...
In conclusion, don’t try to defend Steel Beasts’ price. It doesn’t need defending, since it isn’t intended to be defendable at all. Its rationale is psychological and has nothing to do with economics, roughly matching the rest of PC gaming, or growing the audience.
Not to be a smart ass but with a conclusion like that there is nothing to discuss... :P
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100% agreed...
In conclusion, don’t try to defend Steel Beasts’ price. It doesn’t need defending, since it isn’t intended to be defendable at all. Its rationale is psychological and has nothing to do with economics, roughly matching the rest of PC gaming, or growing the audience.
Not to be a smart ass but with a conclusion like that there is nothing to discuss... :P
Maybe, but I want to leave the door open in case someone else can find something to discuss. :P
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This is a difficult one.
It is unfair to make comparisons with other products because of many factors. Esims target a specific customer who has a specific interest.
Let’s compare to DCS. DCS is free. You get free updates. You only pay for what you want. The mp community is not affected by updates. What I mean is that it is a free update to latest version so it is easy to obtain. This means it is easier for mp sessions. Regular bug fixes and free engine upgrades/updates.
I have no issue paying for extra content. A lot of resources get put into creating and improving models etc. However, what about bug fixes? These are usually free but what if you have a version which has some significant bugs and the next update is a paid one? This means you end up having to pay for the fix. How can this be addressed? Esim could produce an update for the older version to address the bugs. This however costs resources. I understand that there has to come a time when older versions are "left behind".
Esims have said in the past that the relatively high price is a barrier which they deliberately set to avoid disappointment. I understand this but it also stops many people who are interested but cannot see past the initial price tag. Esims have introduced a "time limited license" but this is not ideal to many people as they see it as "renting".
Esims can see the value of a PE version. They receive lots of feedback and bug reports. However this does cost them in customer support. We pay for this though.
The price also takes into consideration the DRM system. You might not like it but it works because there are not illegal copies floating about. Imagine it. If it was readily available for free. What would multiplayer be like? ??? Also it could significantly hurt Esims financially to the point where they either remove the PE version or stop developing the product.
Things are not ideal. It is Esims choice ultimately. We make the choice to support or not support this by purchasing or not purchasing. I for one have enjoyed SB Pro for a number of years and do not regret the purchase. I continue to use it. Would it be better if all updates were free? Yes but Esims have to eat. It is a small company with limited resources. The product will remain niche for the foreseeable future
Regards
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Asid, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on some points. Otherwise, I agree with you.
Esims can see the value of a PE version. They receive lots of feedback and bug reports. However this does cost them in customer support. We pay for this though.
I have serious doubts about Ssnake's claims that the PE version causes a disproportionate amount of customer support. First, the militaries that use Steel Beasts Pro collectively have a lot more people in them than the PE enthusiast community. Even individually, they probably have more people in them. More people generally equals more bug reports. Second, Ssnake himself has stated that Steel Beasts Pro is no longer linear in its development, and that multiple branches are left in service with militaries, at least some of which get bug fixes (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10007-2016-payware-upgrade/?page=3#comment-146655). When Ssnake wrote that in February 2016, by his own count, Steel Beasts Pro 3.x alone had 3 different branches in service, all of which were getting bug fixes. It doesn't sound like the smartest idea for a small developer with limited resources.
Speaking of not the smartest idea, just look at the eSimGames' downloads page: http://www.esimgames.com/?page_id=1390 Old versions available for download going all the way back to the 2.370 beta, and two of the downloads, 2.483 and 2.552, can't be used because the former requires a 2.460 install which isn't provided, and the latter requires a 2.546 install which isn't provided. ::)
The only explanation for why Ssnake represents the PE customer support as so high is that he's lumping in Pro support with PE support, on the grounds that customer support for the Pro version results in bugs fixes for both the Pro and PE versions. Pro does get features well before PE does. Just remember this video of the Pro version from April 29, 2016. PE 4.0 wasn't out yet, yet Pro had several of its features, namely the new particle system, new tracers, and night sky:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvGCQavg-Rk
The price also takes into consideration the DRM system. You might not like it but it works because there are not illegal copies floating about. Imagine it. If it was readily available for free. What would multiplayer be like? ??? Also it could significantly hurt Esims financially to the point where they either remove the PE version or stop developing the product.
I personally don't mind the CodeMeter DRM. eSimGames certainly needs it, as one can tell by reading this CodeMeter case study that they featured in (http://www.wibu.com/us/case-studies/file/download/55.html). But I can understand that others would mind it. Software protection dongles as DRM have never been liked by gamers. And DRM's reputation has only fallen among gamers.
Edit: I forgot to talk about this statement by Ssnake (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10972-will-this-game-have-a-sale-anytime-soon-for-the-full-license/#comment-162880):
What can I say. SB Pro is a highly specialized software developed for a small market. That limits our options as far as prices are concerned if we don't want to lose money with the Personal Edition. I'm not even talking about substantial profits here.
I don't get what Ssnake is saying here. The fact is that Pro makes more than an order of magnitude more money per PC than PE, and that's for a standard classroom license, let alone a containerized simulator license. I can't honestly see how making a loss on PE would heavily damage their income, given how Ssnake is always talking up how little of their income comes from the PE version.
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Asid, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on some points. Otherwise, I agree with you.
Esims can see the value of a PE version. They receive lots of feedback and bug reports. However this does cost them in customer support. We pay for this though.
I have serious doubts about Ssnake's claims that the PE version causes a disproportionate amount of customer support.
The point I was making with that statement was that esims do have to provide support for customers of PE versions but we do not that support for free. We pay for it.
Ultimately the customer or potential customer will choose if the product is too expensive. Esims makes choices based on what they think is best for them.
Regards
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This YouTube comment is another example of the Steel Beasts community viewing the game's price as a problem that needs to be defended: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u2hA0qM1SI&lc=z12bhlcr5yvlfpsiu04cjnvhlqrqff4wwnk0k.1486715936624078 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u2hA0qM1SI&lc=z12bhlcr5yvlfpsiu04cjnvhlqrqff4wwnk0k.1486715936624078)
Because almost 100% of the time the people who complain about the price have no idea about the time based license option. Its a bit hard to guess what you know and what you don't know based on the half phrase that you posted. I mean "man I'd like a copy of that, but the price tho ..." isn't even a sentence, but it implies a judgement that the cost is too high.
The person above is likely Gibsonm, given his talking elsewhere in the YouTube comments about having an i5 and a 560 Ti, and "I work for a living on the ground," which corresponds to his Australian Army service and his mention that he sets the benchmark for Steel Beasts at an i5 and a 560 Ti (http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/9758-graphics-cards-too-much-of-a-good-thing/?do=findComment&comment=141050).
The response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u2hA0qM1SI&lc=z12bhlcr5yvlfpsiu04cjnvhlqrqff4wwnk0k.1486712730460650 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u2hA0qM1SI&lc=z12bhlcr5yvlfpsiu04cjnvhlqrqff4wwnk0k.1486712730460650)
you seem to post this in response to every SB video, but.... that's not what I asked, right ? I know the prices and the different options, I don't get why you'd create a bot to answer that, particularly to people not interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u2hA0qM1SI&lc=z12bhlcr5yvlfpsiu04cjnvhlqrqff4wwnk0k.1486741200132287 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u2hA0qM1SI&lc=z12bhlcr5yvlfpsiu04cjnvhlqrqff4wwnk0k.1486741200132287)
so you're saying that it's my fault that you posted that..? How about you think half a second more and figure out that there is no chance that anyone missed one of your gaijillion copy pasted comment ? I didn't ask for the price or anything, I'm grown up enough to know how to find the official link with everything written there. If you're genuinely here to help you might need to change your message from the "oh my god people are SO DUMB" tone to an actual informative and useful one; e.g. : "I don't know if you checked but there is actually a time based license available on the site that would be perfect to try it out. Then if you really like it you can consider upgrading to the full fledged version ;)" see ? more polite, less douchy, and an actual help without sounding patronizing ;)
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I paid $175 Canadian........
I don't mind the price at all.
I did research before buying and knew what I was buying.
I don't regret the purchase at all...
Sorry to go off topic, but
My beef is with DRM and the method they use.
It's confusing.
I would prefer not having to plug in a USB stick. (windows install uses this feature)
This means changing the BIOS which some people might not be comfortable with.
As far as pricing, I think downloading a copy and a key. Paying for major updates would be a good enough.
No disks or USB sticks.
Steam is not an option for me. I like to have a personal copy on my drive.
Steam might last as long as GameSpy.
Other than the DRM. I'm a fan.
This is a top notch simulation. Not a game.
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A side note in discussing upgrade pricing: http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11657-patching-original-sb-pro-pe/#comment-173402
Last but not least there are about 600,000 lines of code (which is the same order of magnitude as Windows 95, I once heard).
Not even close. Windows 95 is estimated to have 15 million lines of code in it:
http://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_lines_of_code_are_in_Windows_95#slide=2
http://www.howmanyarethere.us/how-many-lines-of-code-in-windows-7/
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http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11878-wot-aw-and-other-tank-games-that-are-an-irrelevant-tangent-on-a-support-case/#comment-177176
Ssnake gives us another example of the irrationality that surrounds Steel Beasts' pricing. It's irrational for Ssnake to whine about how WoT and AW players won't jump to Steel Beasts even though they're dissatisfied with WoT and AW, when Ssnake himself admitted that he used pricing to put up a barrier against impulse buyers:
Exactly, I see no reason why one wouldn't be able to enjoy both. That being said, the whining about certain business and game mechanism decisions ("gold spamming", "artillery imbalance", "maps forcing predictable behavior", "grinding") that I'm reading about elsewhere fills me both with mild amusement ... some anger at the same time when those complaining about all this don't even want to look at SB which suffers from none of these issues (but has no automatic multiplayer game session management).
Maybe the complaints are hyperbolic. Not that this has ever happened before on the interwebs.
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http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4394169/re-fs-sb-4-0-pro-85#Post4394169
Starting here, aleader and Ssnake get into an argument about Steel Beasts' pricing. This illustrates a problem with Steel Beasts' pricing: it's intended as a barrier against ignorant impulse buyers, but when it's encountered by a person who is knowledgeable of Steel Beasts, it can come across as a bad deal.
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http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4395206/re-fs-sb-4-0-pro-85#Post4395206
I totally understand that Steam sales make it harder to justify higher prices for run of the mill games, and if you're primarily after entertainment, there are good games out there that are also cheap. They can be cheap because they were designed for a mass audience, therefore sales figures are much higher and the entire mass production logic applies. So by all means, indulge!
We at eSim Games have zero inclination to jump into a price competition with Steam sales, however.
If you're waiting for that, don't hold your breath.
Steel Beasts Pro PE is offered for the price that covers its marginal costs of creation and production. Even then our customers reap the benefit of heavily subsidized development. Armies pay for that, so we can sell the Personal Edition for the marginal production costs rather than trying to recoup the total development costs. Also, armies largely subsidize the actual content. Otherwise you'd never get to see the interior of most of our AFVs and how their fire control system worked - save for volunteering as a soldier (and even then you'd get to learn only one, maybe up to three of these but certainly not more.
In short, we offer something unique. EIther it is "unique enough" for you (our offer stands).
Or if you aren't that much interested in the specifics of Steel Beasts, Steam sales offer the grand opportunity to reduce the price per hour of entertainment from a few dozen cents with Steel Beasts, to a few percent of a cent. I have never debated the customer's final say in purchasing decisions. All I'm asking you is to fairly judge our offer and then to make your informed decision. Depending on the individual perspective, for some we offer a great deal, for others not so much. Both are entirely valid points of view.
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After reflecting on my last post in the this topic, it seems that Ssnake has changed the rationale, from deterrence to covering marginal costs. Now, even Ssnake doesn't understand the pricing of Steel Beasts.
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http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=23642.msg651826#msg651826
Here's another example of Ssnake not understanding the pricing of Steel Beasts. He used to say that it was to deter impulse buyers (which I think is the real reason). But now he doesn't think that: "In response to the claims that our permanent licenses were too expensive and therefore limit our sales (which I suspected to be hogwash back then, a suspicion that I can now confirm)"
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I haven't played Steel Beasts. I have seen it operating.
I come from some other areas of knowledge though.
I had an exceptionally clever computer guru buddy teach me how to get anything you damned well want off the internet for free. The only thing you can't get on the internet is your virginity. That's gone forever :)
There's no DRM in existence that will defeat the skilled gamer.
DRM is really only a deterrent vs the non-nerd.
I own all of Gary's games, barely play them. Price is no barrier to someone with money that just wants something. They seem to manage with just a serial as a defense. Likely because only a hardcore fan will even want the program.
Steel Beast at 125.00 is like most current era war game board games. The current incarnation of what began as Third Reich is about 150.00.
ASL is a product that is 90 bucks for just a manual. The Beyond Valor purchase puts it past 125.00 for just a board game.
Models of Tamiya tanks in 1/35th scale can go for 125.00 with no effort.
I just dropped 300.00 friggin bucks on my son's birthday gift, an airsoft pistol (groan).
Lego, most of the good ones are easily 125.00 or more.
The only cash using pleasure in my life is finding used romance novels for 3-5 bucks.
In the end, the question is, do you want this game?
It's not about the reason it is 125.00, it's about the reason you want the game.
If you can't afford 125.00, you likely can't afford 40 bucks either.
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I bought the Steelbeast 4.1 upgrade bundle even though I know my rig won't run it without single fps rates. And a new i7 Intel rig with SSD, tons (32Gb) of DDR4 RAM, plus a video card with at least 6Gb of RAM won't get past the home Exchequer. So why did I buy the upgrade bundle? Because like the Jonas Brothers sing, "I'm a sucker for you (Steel Beasts)".
Pauses to think.
Okay, I'll tell you why I bought it.
(1) I've been waiting for years for an upgrade to SB Pro PE. Now here it is. So GRAB it.
(2) To take advantage of the Advance Orders pricing (the cost is higher now after the launch)
(3) To own a nicely printed manual so I can read it during traffic jams and while waiting for Windows updates to finish.
(4) The mystery gift lured me ... and now I have a nice (muffled words) to remind me of Steel Beasts everyday at work
Cheers
Frankie
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https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/15457-want-to-buy-classic-license-have-90-days-left-on-my-current-license/#comment-221762
This is part of a larger post. Ssnake is incorrect here. As of right now, Steel Beasts is $115. Add 2 major upgrades ($30 per major upgrade), and you have $175 for 5 years. Meanwhile, the 1-year time-limited license is $247.50 for 5 years.
Going by the more realistic one-year license, it's 50 bucks per year. A three-year period is still less than a classic license plus one upgrade that's to be expected in that period. After five years you might be ahead with the time-based license by maybe 50...60 bucks if a second major upgrade was released for the classic license owners. So, 10...12 dollars a year, effectively. That's two pints in a pub?