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Author Topic: Luftwaffe - German Airforce  (Read 1005 times)

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Online General Sandman

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Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« on: February 10, 2019, 03:10:38 PM »
Hi,

I am not known as a FlightSim freak, but currently here in germany theres a discussion about our tornado contingent.  :bitchslap

As far as I know, the german airforce still has about 85 active tornados of different modifications. Those machines are about to expire in terms of effectiveness and effeciency. Obviously there is no decent modern alternative jet of german or european production to replace the remaining tornados. So now there´s a discussion about what to do best.  :director :grump :pray :confused :book :dunno

Since the german defence department and its secretaries and administration seemed to lack of competence and effective structure for a long time :Shit fan :meeting :shots :scared1 :bullshit :poke, I just want to find out, if our experts in this forum are better advisors to handle the problem, if they´re interested in the subject, of course.

Offline Frankie

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2019, 01:32:03 PM »
I'll have to consult Tony Stark on this one.

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Offline Tom N

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2019, 04:33:29 PM »
Hi Mr. General Sandman(n) and hi Frankie,

I happened to witness many problems with the Tornado Recce variant
(in Kropp/Jagel --> Schleswig-Holstein),
mostly with "one engine failures" and "moving the gear down errors".
Once the onboard gun was triggered "armed" and couldn't be unarmed again.
Some Tornado crash accidents involved maneuvers near ground, I think.
But the Tornado still handles a lot more safer than the Starfighter
(AG-51 stocked those before the Tornado got into service
nickname for the Starfighter: widow maker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals )

And getting the spare parts is a problem, too.

Via the "Tornado - Operation Desert Storm"-Sim I got to love that airplane,
but in reality the German vehicle has quite some illnesses.
(though NEVER with wing, flap, slat configuration, MIND that)

Might need to consult real airplane mechanics for more details.

I'd suggest trying to replace/ modify the engines, if that would be possible.
Think about packing 2 or 4 more of those into the hull ;-)
Or really do an overhaul!

The engines, as calculations and comparisons with MiG-31 and Su-27 have shown
(thanks to Speedwagon to help a lot there),
are THE WEAKNESS in the Tornado weapon system.

You might experiment with engine bleed/ bleed air amount (Zapfluft) as well.

But I really have no clue, I'm not a technician nor a pilot!

[EDIT] Getting more ideas by the minute:
uninstall the airbrakes, pilots will handle splendidly without them,
and replace the back seat by a nice, female AI ! (saves more space and weight)

Whet/ grind the surface to deflect radar rays in all other directions but back to the source :D

Remove the undercarriage and use a stretcher-like structure on the runway, on which the pilot needs to land and lock (because, in a real bad situation the airplane can land totally fine without the gear)

Cancel out pylon swiveling by replacing the wing armament stuff towards the Tornado belly, the Bomb slots needs replacement to the Tornado top (upper hull), so then the Tornado can do fighting stuff by staying heads up in the air, then going into bomb drop run by inverting the plane. (little bit insane? -ah, still possible to do that, wouldn't it?)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 07:32:34 PM by Tom N »

Offline Speedwagon

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2019, 10:16:35 PM »
Hello General Sandman,

There is an article entitled "Finding Germany's Future Fighter" in this month's issue of AirForces Monthly. You can see the spread at 00:18 in the video:

https://twitter.com/AFMonthly/status/1098959115399954432

I haven't read it yet but perhaps it addresses some of your questions.

Cheers,
SW

Offline Frankie

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2019, 10:35:13 PM »
That Twitter account https://twitter.com/AFMonthly has many impressive aviation pictures. Here's one:

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Online Asid

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2019, 12:15:40 AM »
Nice screen Frankie  :thumbsup

Gee, thanks. Not by me, haha! Anyways, that aircraft would be, what, me thinks a Mig29 Fulcrum?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 12:35:59 AM by Frankie »

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Online Asid

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2019, 12:38:42 AM »
 :laughing4

Frankie...You haven't quite got the hang of using your admin/moderator powers yet  :lol

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Offline Frankie

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2019, 12:41:08 AM »
Deja vu. Last time it was Speedwagon's post, this time it's Asid's post. I've outdone myself.

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Online Asid

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2019, 12:44:08 AM »
I think you are correct Frankie "me thinks a Mig29 Fulcrum?"

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Online General Sandman

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2019, 09:46:05 AM »
Hello General Sandman,

There is an article entitled "Finding Germany's Future Fighter" in this month's issue of AirForces Monthly. You can see the spread at 00:18 in the video:

https://twitter.com/AFMonthly/status/1098959115399954432

I haven't read it yet but perhaps it addresses some of your questions.

Cheers,
SW


Thx, I will try to read it soon, although it doesnt seem easy to identify the letters (dunno if its cos I am using onboard graphics atm).

Actually I already read an article about that matter in the online portal of a german newspaper.


Summary:

Alternatives:

- F 35
- F 18
- Eurofighter
- Keeping Tornado for the time being

The lady minister has already refused to supply with the F 35, because probably only a workaround is it what is sought for atm. Also political and cost reasons (about 100 million $ per unit) might have been relevant for the decision. France and Germany obviously are planning for an own highly modern european Super-Jet till 2040.

An important criterion is the capability to carry american nuclear weapons, which the Tornado has, but the F18 and the Eurofighter arent certified for yet. The defence deperatment is currently checking for the posibilty and the expenditure of a certification procedure in the USA for those types.


Offline Beef

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2019, 04:03:51 AM »
I think the F-16, in it's current offering, is a potent threat and cost-effective.


Online General Sandman

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2019, 09:30:36 AM »
I think the F-16, in it's current offering, is a potent threat and cost-effective.



OK, a nice piece of hardware, but there might not be any relevant added value in terms of progression and capability, cos the F 16 is even a bit older than the Tornado, I guess.

Even if the cost-effectiveness for maintenance was much better, we have to consider, that it might be much cheaper to keep the costly Tornados than buying several dozens of squadrons of the F 16 just for getting over for up to 2 decades and also maintaining those afterwards.

We´d rather spend every possible penny for the silver bullet, which obviously is in a very early stage?!

Online General Sandman

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Re: Luftwaffe - German Airforce
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2019, 09:35:50 AM »
Just found an article about the subject. The Eurofighter seems to be the best political solution, but I still wonder, if it also was technically a good or comparable result.  :dunno

I simply ran this through the goo-translator:

'WiWo': Airbus waves large order for Bundeswehr combat aircraft
Fri, 08.02.19 08:35 · Source: dpa-AFX Print News

TOULOUSE (dpa-AFX) - The aircraft manufacturer Airbus should be according to a report before a billion-dollar order of the Bundeswehr. Since the Federal Government because of the French resistance no new fighters wanted to order the US arms company Lockheed Martin, Airbus stands before orders for 80 to 120 Eurofighter, as the "Wirtschaftswoche", citing an Airbus manager on Friday reported. A company spokesman was initially unable to provide any details. There is still no contract, said the spokesman.

According to the report, the order consists of three parts. According to the Ministry of Defense had announced to take 33 jets as a replacement for older Eurofighter. In addition, there would be up to 50 machines as a replacement for the outdated fighter-bomber Tornado. Still open were orders for up to 40 substitute pilots for Tornados, with which the Federal Armed Forces could drop US nuclear bombs. Here, Airbus also compete with the Boeing F-18 jet.

Airbus said that the Eurofighter could take over the role of the tornado, but this had to be decided on a political level.

Already a week ago, media had reported on a possible large order for 33 Eurofighter, citing insider information from the Ministry of Defense.