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Author Topic: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine  (Read 6350 times)

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Offline choppinlt

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Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« on: November 12, 2016, 07:31:21 PM »
Sorry, I am trying to create this info as fast as I can, so it is all a bit hurried. Feel free to take some liberties and interpolate regarding setup where my explanation may be lacking. I took screenies of the setup stuff. The below shows the battle area in the white box. The straight black line is the start of the defensive setup zone. The black squigly lines show the setup areas of each of the companies. Once the battle commences, they are free to move as the commander likes.

The battlefield should be bocage with a village. The dimensions are 1200m wide and 1500m deep. The US has a 200m deployment zone and can have units arrive as reinforcements as they wish. That means there will be about a 300m no man's land to start. 7/9 and 9/9 have prepared positions, which means they will have wire, mines, obstacles, trenches foxholes, and a wooden bunker. 8/9 will only have foxholes. Let me know if you have questions!

Battle Area


Conditions


FSJ OOB


US OOB1


US OOB2
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 07:36:52 PM by choppinlt »

Offline choppinlt

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2016, 03:17:59 PM »
Quick follow-up, the German companies in the OOB are in order 7,8,9 even though they say 1,2,3. As you can see 8 Kompanie is responsible for most of the defensive zone, but like I said before the Germans are free to do whatever they want once the battle starts. This also means that all of the prepared positions are in the 7 and 9 setup zones, with 8 only getting foxholes. Another thing I noticed is that I removed the trucks for the FSJ(except for guns), but the screenie is showing them as motorized. Feel free to keep the trucks, but it is assumed that most of the transport was off map.

This marks the major debut of rhino equipment, so some of the American tanks are equipped with this.

Like I said, I think you can tell the major details in creating the forces with what I have shown in the screen shots. Also, feel free to add multiple exit points for both sides on the map. Let me know if there are questions!  :)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 03:25:53 PM by choppinlt »

Offline Mad Mike

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2016, 03:34:09 PM »
OK, basic setup is understood. I'm in contact with Ian about the map we should use, once that is decided, we can add the units and should be good to go.

For the map, I've used the map Hill 192 which seems to based on original terrain around St. Lo.
I would make it slightly deeper than 1500m, to have some more room for deployment and movement.

Also, about the German OOB:

Ther should be one company with 1x Platoon and the other two companies will have 2 x Platoons each, correct?

Offline Christian Knudsen

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2016, 04:50:12 PM »
Hey I think that's my map!  And it is created as near as I could get it (based on Google Earth and the 1947 aerial surveys) for the terrain just to the east of the TO battle area.  In fact, the hamlet of Cloville, on the very east border of the Engagement area, is on the Hill 192 map.  I hope you guys enjoy using it!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 05:49:21 PM by Christian Knudsen »

Offline choppinlt

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2016, 06:18:07 PM »
Ha CK, small world eh?!  :)

MM, Feel free to alter the deployment zones and make them deeper if you wish. You can also make the no man's land smaller. Regarding the OOB, yes that should work. I also removed a squad from 2nd plt of 3 Komp, giving it only 2 squads. This OOB reflects that 7/9 and 9/9 are supporting 2 different engagements. In other words they are fighting 3/116 too and their forces are split between the two.

Let me know if you have further questions!

Offline Mad Mike

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2016, 07:25:15 PM »
Hey I think that's my map!  And it is created as near as I could get it (based on Google Earth and the 1947 aerial surveys) for the terrain just to the east of the TO battle area.  In fact, the hamlet of Cloville, on the very east border of the Engagement area, is on the Hill 192 map.  I hope you guys enjoy using it!

Christian, thanks for making this map, it looks great and should be very suitable for this battle, I hope.  :)

Offline Mad Mike

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2016, 07:39:20 PM »
I'm currently looking at buidling the OOB for my German side and am just trying to make sense of the setup.

Usually, a Fallschirmjäger Regiment had three Battalions, I. II. and III., each with 4 companies (1-4), (5-8) and (9-12).
It also had an Anti-Tank (13) and Mortar (14) company.
Companies 4, 8 and 12 were the MG companies, in this example "4 Company (Weapons)".

The numbers between what is used on your ToO map and what I get as an OOB in CM are difficult to reconcile, for example:

- 7, 8 and 9 companies are from two different battalions, the II. and the III.
- 8 company would normally be the MG company of the II. Battalion, not a rifle company
- Which ToO-unit does the "4 Company (Weapons)" unit in the CM OOB represent?

Not trying to be difficult, we could still go ahead with 7, 8 and 9 and any other number for the "4 Company (Weapons)".
The overall command could be called "KG Mad Mike" instead of a Fallschirmjäger Battalion.
Just trying to make sense of it all.  :)

Offline Christian Knudsen

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2016, 10:55:29 PM »
OB is a massive, massive issue, and is probably one of the biggest obstacles to designing operations, along with getting the terrain effects right. 

FJ units in particular are hard to nail down.  For example, it seems that the 3FJ Div did not have its organic FlaK battalion in this time period, for whatever reason.  Sources can be hard to come by, and the lower you want to go, the less clear they are, for obvious reasons.

We also have to think about how to go about translating OBs for other potential games that might be used as Engagement resolution methods.  I have taken a starting stab at this for ASL, but work needs to be done for other systems like Flames of War, etc.

Offline choppinlt

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2016, 03:10:09 AM »
Mad Mike, it was only a matter of time before someone called me on my mistake... :-[ I was well under way with the scenario when I realized my mistake with my numbering of companies. Since I knew what it all meant I just rolled with it. So what we have represented are infantry companies 1-9. 1,2,3 is I battalion, 4,5,6, II battalion, and you are commanding III battalion (7,8,9)...or at least parts of it since there is another engagement happening that involves them as well. The 14 company is providing fire support with 1 battery. You also have a flak battery , and a battery of 105's both attached from divisional support. The AT company appears to have been distributed among the battalions, and is not explicitly represented on the TO map. I *believe* the schrecks are accounted for in the CM TOE for FSJ. If not then feel free to add some! Oh, and KG Mad Mike it is!  ;D I think this will actually help with clarification, so it serves a real purpose!

ToO Game Design Note: battalion weapons companies are not represented as independent companies. It's platoons and subsections are fully accounted for, but they are assigned to one of the infantry companies. I think all weapons company sections are assigned to 9/9 at the moment. And yes, these sections can be moved around and re-parceled within the battalion infantry companies.

Once we get something automated, it will be FAR easier to generate accurate and highly detailed OOB's. As it stands now I am trying to do it all by hand, so there will be inevitable mistakes. So if something doesn't make sense or you otherwise have questions, please ask!

CK, my recollection is that they had flak batteries available by July 11. Let me know if you find out otherwise, but I thought there were 88's involved in this area. If not, then there are for this scenario I guess!  ;)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 02:45:27 PM by choppinlt »

Offline A Canadian Cat

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2016, 02:56:02 PM »
OK finally getting here.  I was not able to actually fire up the game this morning so please excuse my questions that would be answerable if I had just fired up the game :D .

So, I hear from @Mad Mike that he has setup his order of battle - which I am guessing is the V2 scenario file.  Am I correct in saying that the US order of battle is not set yet in that file?  and If that is the case then @choppinlt I cannot read the screen shots you posted of the US OOB.  Even when I click on them to show them "full size" there has been some scaling and I cannot read the words clearly.  If I need to setup the OOB can you post full sized screens or send me links via PM.

Offline choppinlt

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2016, 04:03:51 PM »
Cat, I'm not certain about the status of the American OOB. Unless we hear otherwise in the mean time, I will get those pics to you. It will be a few hours before I will have access to those files, but I will send them to you if necessary.

Offline A Canadian Cat

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2016, 06:35:57 PM »
Thank you.  For me I might get a chance tonight to look at the scenario file but if not it will be early tomorrow EST.

Offline Mad Mike

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2016, 07:43:49 PM »
Thank you.  For me I might get a chance tonight to look at the scenario file but if not it will be early tomorrow EST.

I have now also uploaded V3 with some more purchases and preliminary (rough) deployment of the German troops.

The file does not contain any American units yet.

Offline Mad Mike

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2016, 07:59:24 PM »
Mad Mike, it was only a matter of time before someone called me on my mistake... :-[ I was well under way with the scenario when I realized my mistake with my numbering of companies. Since I knew what it all meant I just rolled with it. So what we have represented are infantry companies 1-9. 1,2,3 is I battalion, 4,5,6, II battalion, and you are commanding III battalion (7,8,9)...or at least parts of it since there is another engagement happening that involves them as well. The 14 company is providing fire support with 1 battery. You also have a flak battery , and a battery of 105's both attached from divisional support. The AT company appears to have been distributed among the battalions, and is not explicitly represented on the TO map. I *believe* the schrecks are accounted for in the CM TOE for FSJ. If not then feel free to add some! Oh, and KG Mad Mike it is!  ;D I think this will actually help with clarification, so it serves a real purpose!

ToO Game Design Note: battalion weapons companies are not represented as independent companies. It's platoons and subsections are fully accounted for, but they are assigned to one of the infantry companies. I think all weapons company sections are assigned to 9/9 at the moment. And yes, these sections can be moved around and re-parceled within the battalion infantry companies.

Once we get something automated, it will be FAR easier to generate accurate and highly detailed OOB's. As it stands now I am trying to do it all by hand, so there will be inevitable mistakes. So if something doesn't make sense or you otherwise have questions, please ask!

CK, my recollection is that they had flak batteries available by July 11. Let me know if you find out otherwise, but I thought there were 88's involved in this area. If not, then there are for this scenario I guess!  ;)

No problem at all, I'm quite happy to go with anything you suggested, so KG Mad Mike it is from now on.

My basic setup on this map would be like this:



I've split the heavy weapons between the 8. and the 9. companies. 8. company will only have foxholes, while the others will have better prepared positions.

Hope this is what you had in mind for the approximate defensive setup.

I will let Ian do his OOB first, then we can still have some finishing touches like exit zones and objectives (not sure if we need them or if we just play it without objectives .. would be quite the novel concept).

Offline Mad Mike

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Re: Battle of St. Andre de l'Epine
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2016, 08:32:14 PM »
OB is a massive, massive issue, and is probably one of the biggest obstacles to designing operations, along with getting the terrain effects right. 

FJ units in particular are hard to nail down.  For example, it seems that the 3FJ Div did not have its organic FlaK battalion in this time period, for whatever reason.  Sources can be hard to come by, and the lower you want to go, the less clear they are, for obvious reasons.

We also have to think about how to go about translating OBs for other potential games that might be used as Engagement resolution methods.  I have taken a starting stab at this for ASL, but work needs to be done for other systems like Flames of War, etc.

Agreed. I'm now frequently amazed by how little actually seems to be known, especially on the German side.
Just yesterday, when looking for the OOB of the Fallschirmjäger Regiment 9. Or one example from a couple of days ago, when I was looking for a solid OOB of the German side in "Market Garden" (for campaign purposes on the Few Good Mens "Highway to Hell" campaign). I couldn't really find one. The best one I could find is still in my copy of "It never snows in September", and this is sketchy at best. It shows the units involved, but does not provide any clear picture of the organisation.

I think one of the main reasons for doing ETO 1944-45 over and over again in wargames is that it is the best documented part of the wider World War 2. It is actually quite easy to find information, partly even for the German side. But hey, that is only my personal theory.  ;)