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Offline Frankie

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About Tornado : Discussion
« on: May 10, 2016, 01:35:00 AM »
Quote
A detailed flight sim of the Tornado strike fighter. Features high-speed, low-altitude precision bombing runs over a battlefield full of active friendly and enemy air and ground units. Allows you to utilize all the complex avionics in both positions of the two-man cockpit. Campaign mode contains a full-featured mission editor. The editor contains a dynamic battlefield map, which reflects the results of your latest missions. If you plan and execute a mission against a SAM site, it will be gone in the next planning session. The editor allows you to plot and synchronize attacks consisting of multiple flights of Tornados.

Operation Desert Storm is an add-on for Digital Integration's Tornado flight simulator. The disk includes 20 pre-programmed missions for the Tornado IDS and ADV variant. The new warzone also supports campaign play like the original programme. New aircraft, vehicles and ground objects were added and the colour schemes of the 3D objects are updated for the new desert scenario.


Discuss and reminisce about Tornado here. What do you love, like or hate about it? Was and is the Mission Planner all it was cracked up to be? Hey, what's up with the Flat-shaded polygons of the 1990s in Tornado? How does that square up with the graphics of today's DCS and Falcon BMS? Is the gameplay in Tornado that good that the graphics can be forgiven? What would you like to see enhanced? What shouldn't change? Your say.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 06:34:55 AM by Frankie »

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Offline Lusik

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Re: About Tornado : Discussion
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 06:03:15 AM »
I had Amiga at that time and it was the best and the most complex simulator available for that platform. At that time I Ioved everything about it apart from frame rates. I had about 5-6 usually when flying low over the ground. ;)


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Offline Tom N

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Re: About Tornado : Discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2016, 05:43:34 AM »
Stuff that really was cool :
- Flying alongside those Power Lines at about 155 ft
- even the Trees were not only for decorative manners but turned dangerous below 50 ft or so
- turning of SPILS (ctrl + I, i think ) and trying to stall from 20'000 ft or 30'000 ft
- hitting alt+F5 or ctrl+ F5 or shift + F5 or any combination of alt / shift / ctrl + F5 to just watch the other aircrafts, trains, truck-convoys move around (friendly and hostile ones)
- flying as a Tornado-Pack (A,B,C,D,E,F) was awesome but a bit dangerous
- LANDING ON ROADS, (wheels up) LANDING ON GRASS (allowed and ok, despite of that destroyed-scene, just made very cautious contact at very low speed)
- WHEELS UP LANDING in general

Confusing stuff:
Crosswind Landing by autopilot (i realize that this done with real Planes as well and i am shocked that this technique is really executed, reading about  (de-)"crab" and "sideslip"-landing techniques --> i condemn those techniques even if they might be standard in airplane travel history they are simply dangerous/awkward) -

This now i have to ask for real and i am glad to direct my question to the experienced guys:
----> Why not approaching the airfield at an intercepting angle starting at the windward side and accepting being drifted to the touch down point?

Other nice parts:
-SAM's teasing by staying above 16'500 ft, or combining that with dropping and hunting down something airborne launching 1 or 2 of those AIM-9s and then going up and back home again (the other way around with enemy AWACS, starting in low terrain following mode)
- using thrust-reversers with afterburners and just-in-time-quitting (were there really no fire extinguishers on board?), using thrust reversers below 60 kts with 100% engine power without afterburners for a similar but safer effect :-D
- exceeding mach 2.3  (having a super light "simulator" plane with infinite fuel, long-level-accelerating flight at 45'000 ft and then descending at an angle of -15 degrees or so)

I missed:
-avoiding those mission planner warnings about changed weapons configurations or low fuel warnings -->sometimes it was a bit tedious to get to the desired take-off conditions
- one time reloading and refuelling at first landing after delivering the "packages"could be helpful for those command missions
- i missed (when i do compare Tornado from 1991 or so with EF2000, so i cannot really miss it) communicating with the wingmen and with the AWACS-unit.
-choosing to leave the countermeasurements pods (ECM, chaffs, Flares) at home to get extra ALARMS, ok situations for that wish are rare enough
- Getting the choice to land on the angled crosswind safe 2nd runway there were only ILS Data for the main Runways

BUT:
mission planner User Interface (UI) was somehow as genuine as the Windows 3.11 UI, at least i had that impression

So far i liked this DOS-Game, but when i viewed/watched the real PA-200s in northern Germany i feared for the Pilots sometimes, so many issues with the Landing Gears and with 1-Engine-Landings (due to my military medic duty and witnessing so many minor emergency landings, ok probably due to the number of stationed tornados those yearly minor emergencies each would total up to be about 1 or 2 per Tronado Plane per year)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 11:14:05 AM by Tom N »

Offline Tom N

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Re: About Tornado : Discussion
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2016, 05:47:40 AM »
Sorry i copy-pasted my post into notepad because predicting i probably could get a letter counting error --> then pasting somehow scrambled the text (inserted spaces and breaks), hopefully it's still good enough to be read.

Edit: Ok, luckily I could modify my above comment, so now this one should be unnecessary.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 05:55:28 AM by Tom N »

Offline Frankie

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Re: About Tornado : Discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2016, 06:41:31 AM »
Great post Tom N! I haven't had any experience landing the plane in a cross-wind. I'm just struggling to:
  • stay alive and not get hit by AAA or SAMs
  • get used to the Autothrottle
  • to make that planned Time-Over-Target accurate, down to the last second
  • land my plane in one piece, even with a few hundred units of juice left

Fun stuff.

After the Dogs of War are let slip, let us smoke the Pipes Of Peace.

Offline Tom N

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Re: About Tornado : Discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2016, 10:36:33 AM »
Ah, i see, Autothrottle kills your fuel, just as well do the waypoints --> try to use waypoints only for a rough route into enemy territory and never lead them back to home airfield, but only roughly outside of enemy territory mayby put last waypoint on a friendly SAM position. Use the keys M (for large map) and numberpad key 7 (cockpit) to orientate toward target (use the hills and mountains and the rivers as distinctive signs), STAY IN the valleys, stay very low (around 160 ft is okay enough) or stay very high (about 25'000 ft superior position against Anti Aircraft).
I made some experiments about wing sweep angles and speed and autothrottle --> according to weight you will lose velocity speed when sweeping the wings to the "arrow" variant,
when carrying JP-233 the plane still gets additional downforce / deviation at about 380 kts, what is actually near the threshold of switching into arrow wing angle (400 to 420 kts)
When doin so i noticed that the Autothrottle went down another % of fuel using, but i turn it off completely because when turning it will always engage afterburners and that's a total waste of range. Never do that --> also never do a take of with afterburners --> when taking of for example with fully loaded AiM's and ALARMS only, try the middle wing sweep (instead of the Cessna wing sweep mode) before hitting the gas and the default level 2 flaps and then let the aircraft slowly accelerate to 180 kts should be near the rim of the runway but stay cool !
The idea is to prolong flight with absolutely nof Afterburner usage --> so Autothrottle is not your friend but very likely your range and travel time killer !  --> use always 100 % engine power that's the most efficient/ economic setting

AAA's are simple you can even out maneuvre them with that waypoint following autopilot and switching between 200 ft and 300 ft height setting.

Early-Late-Timing (TEA or so ) --> completely unimportant just make it to group target BEFORE your wingmen, clear the bombing range of SAM's AAA's (priority with good weather are always SAM's, wingmen are a bit more sturdy than the own aircraft - bad weather means get those AAA's shut down) --> then lay your package, then playing wild weasel for the early warning radars and the anti aircrafts (enemy Combat Air Patrols)

I was frightened for along time when i marked them by radar and watched how fast they could speed up to about 800/900 kts, but that's their speed above ground and thus not at all the own indicated air speed (IAS). It was then again confusing with the enemy AWACS --> this was travelling with 240 kts IAS but at 36'000 ft (mach 8 or 9, do not be fooled by that former low number ) so you needed to exceed that by a much higher amount when following and intercepting.

You could even cheat a little and give your wingmen guided bombs during bad weather so to protect them from ground forces, then planning a very slow flight for them and playing wild weasel preferredly with gr4-tornado and have support by 2 F-3's. for the group route.

The software cheated too, when firing ALARMS on Anti Aircraft Tanks that were not on level ground those missiles always missed that tank !

Offline Frankie

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Re: About Tornado : Discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2016, 11:59:27 AM »
Hi Tom

Thank you for your most detailed explanation. Which could only come from someone who either (A) played hours of Tornado in his younger years that now he still remembers almost all the technical gaming details, OR (B) is still playing Tornado on and off, but his last game was recently. So which is it? (A) or (B)?  :D

I want to achieve a perfect - right down to the exact second - Time Over Target with a multiple-plane flight synchronised ingress at multiple angles and egress right on schedule as per the Mission Planner. So far I am not able to do it. I can get my late or early to be zero seconds before reaching the first waypoint, but then after my plane finishes turning to the next waypoint, I am late by, for example, 10 seconds. So I speed up again and use Autothrottle (which is evident to you that I am not using it properly) to get my late or early to be zeroised to zero seconds. So far I still can't really get the hang of it. I want to achieve a perfect ALL planes over the target area at the same time, coming in from different angles, and departing from the target area at different angles. This is what I call the "perfect strike".

I found that if I write down the speeds times of each waypoint arrival in the mission planner, I can get closer to the "perfect strike".

I will read your last post and re-evaluate my actions in my next mission. Especially my favourite mission, the Mission One (JP-233 runaway strike mission) in Operation Desert Storm.

Cheers
Frankie Kam

P.S., obviously you know a lot about Tornado gameplay until you can even game the game. How would you like to be part of the development "Team"? If not as a coder, at least as a consultant or test player?
 8)

« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 12:03:03 PM by Frankie »

After the Dogs of War are let slip, let us smoke the Pipes Of Peace.

Offline Tom N

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Re: About Tornado : Discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2016, 02:39:49 PM »
Ok it is "B" --> for doing that Early Late at 0 sec try this :

When in tornado - Operation Desert Storm, try the Simulator Mission 15 use infinite Fuel, infinite Weapons, minimum weight, active g-force, active enemy.

When starting do as was recommended middle wing swep, use F1 and shift + x or y to get a good rear view preset while accelerating to 180 kts also you might press "o" once in front seat mode and back seat mode for better map view, then once "" on my keyboard which should be "]" on those american ones, to switch to AiM's missiles so to have better Air Radar range when alt + R activating this

Now following those Wingmen, that deny following you --> activate air Radar get behind those 5 x's signs indicated on your radar view and stay at 100% engine output using a little airbraking, but actually you know they would fly at 420 kts till one waypoint before the initial waypoint to x then they accelerate to 520 kts just to the point before x and then accelerate to 550 kts attacking speed.

Try following them in backseat mode, you can arrange more details there big map on left screen air radar on middle screen, front camera view on right screen

You could try to avoid that burning fuel by switching off the auto thrust control one waypoint earlier and get slowly to 550 in one way only using 100%.

Also try to do all the fun stuff in simulator as the "bounce" option is activated and you cannot "crash" --> it helps getting all those clues on your own. Have a one or two hour trip and figure everything out just with one flight.

Offline Frankie

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Re: About Tornado : Discussion
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2016, 02:48:09 PM »
Thanks for the tips, man. Much obliged.

After the Dogs of War are let slip, let us smoke the Pipes Of Peace.

Offline Tom N

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Re: About Tornado : Discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2016, 07:39:09 PM »
So, on with Tornado testing, I did fuel usage time countings at home with my Notebook for

(a) 100 % +afterburner usage, 10720 lbs = 5 min 25 sec .23 (325 seconds)
      --> 33 Lbs per second or 1000 Lbs used up within 30.2 seconds

(b) only 100 % engine without afterburners,  10720 Lbs = 48 min  51 secs . 35 (2931.3 seconds)
       --> 3.657 Lbs per second or 1,000 lbs used up within 273.44 seconds

(c) using 63 % idle engines (but there only for using up 20 Units of fuel) 20 Lbs = 1 min 26 sec .99
      --> approximately 1000 Lbs used up within 4350 seconds (72 min and 30 seconds)

All this I did with the GR-4 IDS (Interdiction Strike) Tornado version, fueled up to 10,720 lbs /pounds in Simulator mode, on ground with wheel brakes on, so without movement at all ^^

Another thing i discovered - bridges and power Lines are fully solid. So no diving below those structures possible. BUT I tested flying through Tall Stack Power structures - it is highly risky but possible when being cautious. It is more tight and tedious with those 4 cooling Towers. I always hit one of them with Simulator "bounce" mode, because the angle has to be super highly accurate to fly through them.

Structures seem to have some health System and weapons obviously seem to have some radius damaging System so to being able damaging/ destroying nearby structures...

To support understanding of Tactics concerning Fighter wings I strictly recommend "Fighter Wing" written by Tom Clancy!

Tornado - Operation Desert Storm was a game about the new use of LGB (laser guided bombs) and even more so JP-233
--> to understand the disastrous effect of JP-233 you should know that not only the detonations denied the use of a runway but the repairs got delayed by mines (anti-person and anti-vehicle mines). It was a nasty weapon and should be prohibited by now.

Comparing the old Tornado game to the real take offs, I would like to see bird aircraft strike hazard implemented (but maybe in the Kuwaitian desert there were no birds, i do not know, but i would like that special, additional danger )
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 09:17:40 AM by Frankie »

Offline Frankie

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Re: About Tornado : Discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2016, 09:21:46 AM »
Bird Strike in real-life

 
A birdstrike is every pilot's worst nightmare. Watch this dramatic cockpit footage as Czech fighter pilot Abel ...
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 02:25:09 AM by Frankie »

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Offline Frankie

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Re: About Tornado : Discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2016, 02:22:08 AM »
Hi Tom

>...power Lines are fully solid. So no diving below those structures possible.
>

Image: Powerlines outside my office block.

I don't think a Tornado can go under the lowest power line of that structure. So DI was correct. You go under, you kaput-ski.

Regards
Frankie Kam
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 02:25:44 AM by Frankie »

After the Dogs of War are let slip, let us smoke the Pipes Of Peace.

 

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