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Apocalypse31

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New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« on: October 11, 2015, 02:49:21 AM »
I would like to recommend an amendment to the rules, in regards to new player participation:

Situation
Earlier today (Saturday) we had an outstanding, large mission ready for play. A friend of mine, who is a a real-world active duty armor officer, was available to play. At the last moment I asked him if he would like to join. He joined TS but was told that he wouldn't be able to play. This was extremely frustrating because we are a good community that should encouraging people to play - thats the reason I'm here. At the same time this incident was my fault - I should've asked more questions about the rules for participation. I was also upset because we had just turned down a potentially good SB player from a game where we could've used the extra body.

Observations
Numbers. In the last six months our numbers have gone stagnate, and at some points have reached points that are lower than average. This could be due to a number of possibilities: the move to a private TS server, and the fact that normal SB'ers cant wander in and join us. Collateral damage from the incident with eSim. A lack of new content from the game. Whatever the case is, we have seen relatively few new members join us for Steel Beasts sessions. We've reached a cap on mission complexity and size, which in turn limits out ability to learn and grow. Todays mission was a Battalion-sized mission where some players were managing multiple Platoon elements - it worked, but not recommended.

Quality of Play. While our numbers have either remained the same or dipped, our play quality has exponentially increased. I have seen our group overcome complex tactical problems and secure victory even with the odds against us. Our communication has been oustanding, and we have seen a number of player step up as CO or Platoon leader roles. We have become smoother, smarter and more lethal on the virtual battlegrounds of Steel Beasts. With that being said, I see no difference between the formal gaming of Saturday missions versus the informal and friendly Sunday missions. It's the same players, playing the same way. Last year, when we use the eSim TS server we would see a number of new folks joining us for missions. At the time this rule was welcomed, but NEEDED in order to maintain the progression of our unit.

We are in a new situation and I think we should adjust as necessary.

Recommendation
Having achieved a baseline level of quality in our performance, I recommend we allow new players the ability to join Saturday missions. Doing so will potentially increase our numbers, and allow new players to observe the STANDARD for DoW missions - this could be the best form of advertising that we have. This also offers a larger challenge for new players - which is a great way to learn, in some cases.

Requisites for Saturday Missions
Players must be sponsored by a DoW member. They represent you.
New players will not hold leadership positions.
Unless given permission by the mission leader, new players will only crew a single vehicle
Players must still comply with rules for online play in accordance with: http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,675.0.html

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Offline Connaugh

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2015, 05:14:03 AM »
I would like to recommend an amendment to the rules, in regards to new player participation:

Situation
Earlier today (Saturday) we had an outstanding, large mission ready for play. A friend of mine, who is a a real-world active duty armor officer, was available to play. At the last moment I asked him if he would like to join. He joined TS but was told that he wouldn't be able to play. This was extremely frustrating because we are a good community that should encouraging people to play - thats the reason I'm here. At the same time this incident was my fault - I should've asked more questions about the rules for participation. I was also upset because we had just turned down a potentially good SB player from a game where we could've used the extra body.

Observations
Numbers. In the last six months our numbers have gone stagnate, and at some points have reached points that are lower than average. This could be due to a number of possibilities: the move to a private TS server, and the fact that normal SB'ers cant wander in and join us. Collateral damage from the incident with eSim. A lack of new content from the game. Whatever the case is, we have seen relatively few new members join us for Steel Beasts sessions. We've reached a cap on mission complexity and size, which in turn limits out ability to learn and grow. Todays mission was a Battalion-sized mission where some players were managing multiple Platoon elements - it worked, but not recommended.

Quality of Play. While our numbers have either remained the same or dipped, our play quality has exponentially increased. I have seen our group overcome complex tactical problems and secure victory even with the odds against us. Our communication has been oustanding, and we have seen a number of player step up as CO or Platoon leader roles. We have become smoother, smarter and more lethal on the virtual battlegrounds of Steel Beasts. With that being said, I see no difference between the formal gaming of Saturday missions versus the informal and friendly Sunday missions. It's the same players, playing the same way. Last year, when we use the eSim TS server we would see a number of new folks joining us for missions. At the time this rule was welcomed, but NEEDED in order to maintain the progression of our unit.

We are in a new situation and I think we should adjust as necessary.

Recommendation
Having achieved a baseline level of quality in our performance, I recommend we allow new players the ability to join Saturday missions. Doing so will potentially increase our numbers, and allow new players to observe the STANDARD for DoW missions - this could be the best form of advertising that we have. This also offers a larger challenge for new players - which is a great way to learn, in some cases.

Requisites for Saturday Missions
Players must be sponsored by a DoW member. They represent you.
New players will not hold leadership positions.
Unless given permission by the mission leader, new players will only crew a single vehicle
Players must still comply with rules for online play in accordance with: http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,675.0.html

I agree with Apocalyspe in that there really does not appear to be much difference between the Saturday DOW game (more structured, communication protocol, vetted members) and the Sunday T.A.N.K.S which was intended to be like the informal T.G.I.F. Each Saturday and Sunday game basically has the same players, so, as Apocalypse noted, the play is the same. And we are not growing! I remember when there would be 14 players on a weeknight for a DOW game but now we have less than 10 on weekends. Not being visible on the SteelBeasts TS has to hurt as our DOW channel was excellent advertising. A newcomer to the game (or an oldtimer) could see the only VU with active participation and frequent gameplay and be motivated to drop in and inquire and join. And yes, there have been times that a newbie played with us and was a disaster but there have been times that I took the new person in my platoon and using Whisperlist, chatted with him the entire game, giving advice, suggestions, which I think helped. Apocalypse's "Requisites" seem practical and would ensure that a new person does not affect adversely our gameplay.

Conn

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Offline Lumituisku

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2015, 02:27:40 PM »
Basically all here, who have been talking of this topic are experienced members. Were not newbies anymore, so it is difficult for us to see the troubles that come when one is new and joins such session. I remember that when I joined, I had whole lot of troubles and worries. Would I have been without Colebrook watching over me, and without many friendly players helping, I could have caused a lot of trouble. Thinking of it. It probably did, and takes away immersion to have such person in mission. Especially if there would be many, not just one. To think of it...  to be watching and observing that such person does things right. There is always a little bit of worry, probably even more so if person is and seems to be experienced and to know lot. Obvious mistake is hard to notice to come then. - So it would be better for this to happen on some other game than Saturday game.

However I do not see new player coming to Saturday game impossible. - The thing is. It should not take away immersion from others. There should be someone who knows the stuff, who can answer, no matter how silly question, and to keep eye that things go right.
There was a time when I wanted to bring my friend to play with Dogs of war. To me it didn't matter if it would been Sunday, Friday or Saturday. Trouble was this friend would only been able to come to play during Saturday. - For this friend, knowing him I would been ready to be his mentor, to make sure that everything is right and so that no troubles would come.  -  Well many of you know how it went. I actually during year had multiple of my friends on missions with us. And there was trouble. Not much.... but all kind of small stuff. Few examples, for unknown reason there was major lag on one of my friends that caused a lot of trouble. And since he was so new, he left right away when mission ended not staying for AAR, actually almost all my friends did so. Cause of reason or another. And I should been making sure them to stay for AAR, but since I was their friend and wanted them best experience for them to come future plays... I didn't say a thing. That's where I did wrong at the time. More over, one of my friends had horrible mic that he didn't fix until half year later.

So... there are just some of my experiences. What im trying to say, is that no matter how I wanted them to join. How ready I was to do things right. They weren't like so. And... They didn't feel responsible to stay since I did all for them.  -  My point being here. One who takes care of newcomer should not been "Me as his friend."

Such things as bringing new players are fine on Sunday or other missions as it is not supposed to be that immersive.

More over. Anyone who would be willing to come play should have everything ready that there is no trouble if one would be joining for game. Right version installed, knowledge how to play steelbeast, and chosen vehicle, working mic, knowledge of coms. Whisper list set up with mentor / tutor. His ability to join into steelbeast game session...  cause we all know how much trouble there can be. Firewalls etc..  32 bit instead of 64.. what not.  All these should be solved before hand. Preferably days before.  It would be good as well if the newcomer would...  at least be in chat with other guys, socializing even a little bit. Perhaps a little game with members of VU. And knowledge before hand that there would be someone new coming, for VU to know before hand. Really.. these are small things but these do difference. Nothing impossible being asked, just fair things to do to make sure gaming stays enjoyable to members of VU.

- - -

So really in short. If newcomer can only to come Saturday mission. Everything should be done before hand, it would be really good if one would socialize and play minor game/s with other members to see if he gets along and to know what kind of member he is. All this that Saturdays immersive gaming would stay. And it should be agreed before hand that newcomer can play. Not like last minute joining and possible trouble for something not being done right. That is why sunday and other missions are far better than saturday.

More over as a side notice. Would be good to play smaller missions if we don't have enough members for large mission.

- - -

As for Dogs of War being low on members. I'm going to open new mission for Saturday (4-3 hours before main DOW mission) and start advertising and organising it. I will need some help though... I hope I will get some. But I will try, and I hope it would bring more interest, members. To join.

Im as well looking to help anyone who needs help with steelbeast, or knowledge of VU. Im not pro... but together we can make difference.


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Pain is the nature of life. it is the recognition that I'm nothing more. - Mark Rowland's

Apocalypse31

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2015, 02:58:42 PM »
However I do not see new player coming to Saturday game impossible. - The thing is. It should not take away immersion from others. There should be someone who knows the stuff, who can answer, no matter how silly question, and to keep eye that things go right.

Agreed.

It falls on the sponsor of that new player.
1 - bring someone who is ready
2 - take on responsibility to advise that player - do not take away from others.
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Offline Asid

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2015, 03:15:28 PM »
I would like to recommend an amendment to the rules, in regards to new player participation:

Situation
Earlier today (Saturday) we had an outstanding, large mission ready for play. A friend of mine, who is a a real-world active duty armor officer, was available to play. At the last moment I asked him if he would like to join. He joined TS but was told that he wouldn't be able to play. This was extremely frustrating because we are a good community that should encouraging people to play - thats the reason I'm here. At the same time this incident was my fault - I should've asked more questions about the rules for participation. I was also upset because we had just turned down a potentially good SB player from a game where we could've used the extra body.
Regarding this pont.
The group agreed a while back that we would operate the way we do. This was done after many games were played on a Saturday that flagged issues which ruined the immersion. A valid point is that the guest did not have a current install of SB and this was 15 minutes after the mission was meant to have started. The guest was also treated with courtesy and respect at all times. The situation was explained to him and he was invited to attend on Sunday. The guest was not aware of any of our procedure.

Here are the agreed points for online play.

Links
http://dogsofwarvu.com/requirements/read-first/
http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,73.0.html

Excerpt from published post:
Requirements:
• Read and accept Parts 1 – 9 above
• You must register for the Dogs of War Forum: Here
• Complete the Join DOW VU application form: Here
• Proper microphone and headphones.
• Regular participation with the group.
• Proper use of D.O.W. Comms procedure.

This is published at the foot of every mission:
"DOW members, by invite, or request in advance prior to mission.

Our goal is to have the DOW session more immersive and realistic. "


Observations
Numbers. In the last six months our numbers have gone stagnate, and at some points have reached points that are lower than average. This could be due to a number of possibilities: the move to a private TS server, and the fact that normal SB'ers cant wander in and join us. Collateral damage from the incident with eSim. A lack of new content from the game. Whatever the case is, we have seen relatively few new members join us for Steel Beasts sessions. We've reached a cap on mission complexity and size, which in turn limits out ability to learn and grow. Todays mission was a Battalion-sized mission where some players were managing multiple Platoon elements - it worked, but not recommended.
There are reasons for the stagnation. You have correctly identified the incident on the SB TeamSpeak as a contributing factor. Up until a week ago we did not publish our TS ip. Therefore we limited the possibility of "drop ins". This is being resolved by advertising the i.p. Also by playing the Sunday TANKS mission on the SimHQ TS server.

There is also another thing which can be done to increase numbers/visibility. If the group contributed to spreading the word or helping with the VU more.


Quality of Play. While our numbers have either remained the same or dipped, our play quality has exponentially increased. I have seen our group overcome complex tactical problems and secure victory even with the odds against us. Our communication has been oustanding, and we have seen a number of player step up as CO or Platoon leader roles. We have become smoother, smarter and more lethal on the virtual battlegrounds of Steel Beasts. With that being said, I see no difference between the formal gaming of Saturday missions versus the informal and friendly Sunday missions. It's the same players, playing the same way. Last year, when we use the eSim TS server we would see a number of new folks joining us for missions. At the time this rule was welcomed, but NEEDED in order to maintain the progression of our unit.

We are in a new situation and I think we should adjust as necessary.
The reason that the lines between play style on DOW and TANKS missions are blurred is because the same people are playing both missions. Quite simple really. What is the group doing to promote our missions to potential players?


Recommendation
Having achieved a baseline level of quality in our performance, I recommend we allow new players the ability to join Saturday missions. Doing so will potentially increase our numbers, and allow new players to observe the STANDARD for DoW missions - this could be the best form of advertising that we have. This also offers a larger challenge for new players - which is a great way to learn, in some cases.

Requisites for Saturday Missions
Players must be sponsored by a DoW member. They represent you.
New players will not hold leadership positions.
Unless given permission by the mission leader, new players will only crew a single vehicle
Players must still comply with rules for online play in accordance with: http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,675.0.html
I suggested Apocalypse make this post and I'm glad he has.

Many of you will remember a short while back when a core member wanted 2 friends to play. The group agreed that they would be welcome to join us on a Saturday if they followed what was agreed by the group. They did not want to follow this so they did not play. The decision was theirs. With this in mind. How could a different decision be made about the guest last night? That would have been wrong. Everyone gets treated the same.

The point about making the Saturday DOW the way it is for immersion and enjoyment over as long a period of time as possible.

We have tried the "mentor" solution in the past and it does have merit. However it requires discussion.

The point about mission size has been brought up again and again. Missions should be made with our group size taken into consideration. This Saturday mission could have been delayed until next week and possibly had 4 more players taking part but it was decided against.

The group is not growing as fast as it did in the past. There are many contributing factors to this. Ask yourselves this..."What do YOU do to grow the VU?" We have steps in place to overcome our visibility issue. That requires a group effort. You can't just make exceptions and rule changes on the fly because we have lower numbers.

There should be no knee-jerk reaction.

Regards
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Offline wilso845

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2015, 03:16:13 PM »
So what your saying is this:

"Hi guys this is Tom he is playing because i say so and he is my friend"

The rules that everyone agreed to were voted and sanctioned by everyone, it wasn't just put in force by the Admin.

I do however agree that numbers are dropping and system of sponsor is a good idea but not 10 minutes or even the date of the mission. This does nothing but disrupt and delay other players who after a hard days graft, want nothing more than to having a relaxing time destroying the enemy.

This shouldn't just apply to steel beasts.

But what assurances do we have if you friend isn't what he says he is?
Who takes the blame?
What happens to the sponsor if it all goes wrong?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 03:21:57 PM by wilso845 »
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Apocalypse31

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2015, 03:35:09 PM »
So what your saying is this:

"Hi guys this is Tom he is playing because i say so and he is my friend"
The rules that everyone agreed to were voted and sanctioned by everyone, it wasn't just put in force by the Admin.

Please re-read the post. This is about growing - Adapting to our current conditions. This isn't a personal attack on the Admins - Asid or anyone else. Yesterday, when we had the incident - it was unanimous in the room that my friend stay and play. I didnt want to break or bend rules, so I voted against it. I'd rather have the discussion here and amend the rules that we already have in place.

But what assurances do we have if you friend isn't what he says he is?
Who takes the blame?
What happens to the sponsor if it all goes wrong?

We have trust in our fellow members of the organization - they wouldn't members if we didn't trust them. With trust comes authority and responsibility - if trust is violated then we remove that authority - retrain that member - and, when ready, re-grant the authority.

Ask yourselves this..."What do YOU do to grow the VU?" We have steps in place to overcome our visibility issue. That requires a group effort. You can't just make exceptions and rule changes on the fly because we have lower numbers. There should be no knee-jerk reaction

And this is where I drew my recommendation. Rather than continue the course, I recommend we amend the rules to our current situation. If we find ourselves back in the situation that we had last year then we can always amend the rules to be more firm again. If you analyze the situation and make an informed decision, then its not a 'knee-jerk' reaction. That is an informed decision.

Like the Dragon Master Said:
Quote
Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 04:04:50 PM by Apocalypse31 »
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Offline Asid

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2015, 04:35:58 PM »
Yesterday, when we had the incident - it was unanimous in the room that my friend stay and play. I didnt want to break or bend rules, so I voted against it[/i]. I'd rather have the discussion here and amend the rules that we already have in place.
This is not how the group operates. We do not decide things like that "on the fly". We do not call a vote for something like this at such short notice. Especially when the game start time had passed.

There is a structure in place to address these things. This is the correct way. Not a vote at the time. Say for arguments sake that you guys had played. Even though it was against the groups published procedure. What about the guys we refused a few months back? Would it have been fare on them? Their friend is a core member of DOW and he accepted the situation. He didn't like it at the time but he did understand why this is in place.

Something as important as this has to be discussed like it is being done now. Otherwise. What is the point?

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Apocalypse31

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2015, 04:44:45 PM »
Something as important as this has to be discussed like it is being done now. Otherwise. What is the point?

I agree - which is why I told the group to disregard it. That's why we're discussing it now.
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Offline Lumituisku

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2015, 06:39:09 PM »

Im most worried in this sponsor thing that if the sponsor if friend of newcomer there would happen same that happened to me. That this newcomer feels that rules do not apply to him same way as to his sponsor.

As example.. AAR. It is very tiny thing. These newcomer in the past tend to just leave when mission is over and not doing AAR.  Or that they improvise between orders cause they play with their friend and that's why lack respect to group. That is what happened to me, when I brought my friends to mission.

I found out it to be difficult to demand them to stay for AAR or some of the rules cause I wanted them to join and be interested. Thats why I think that someone else than newcomers friend should be this erm sponsor, mentor or so, who looks after one. 

On sunday mission there would not been such problem as it is more casual. More to taste of many as its not so.. formal, and tight.
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Pain is the nature of life. it is the recognition that I'm nothing more. - Mark Rowland's

Offline Beef

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2015, 07:16:50 PM »
Yesterday, after Cougar stated the rules quite clearly, Apocalypse acquiesced and stated several times there should be no vote. I don't recall exactly who suggested the vote, but it wasn't Apocalypse.

I understand why Apocalypse was initially frustrated. Given his profession he was focused on accomplishing the mission and history is replete with America's foes complaining they don't always follow doctrine. So, naturally yesterday I'm sure Apocalypse wanted to get more human players into the fight. I must confess I was of the same mind and trusted Apocalypse's friend would be competent, mature, and would contribute to the immersion of the Saturday mission.

But, as I said, once the rule was stated he rightly stood down and carried on with accomplishing the mission with the resources he had--that and some Apache love.

 

We shouldn't disregard any rule, but we should properly amend a rule if it is found wanting.

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Offline wilso845

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2015, 07:39:23 PM »

Im most worried in this sponsor thing that if the sponsor if friend of newcomer there would happen same that happened to me. That this newcomer feels that rules do not apply to him same way as to his sponsor.

This is whats i touched on and fully agree with your concerns.
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Offline Cougar11

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Re: New Player Participation & Sponsorship
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2015, 09:46:32 PM »
First I would like to thank Apocalypse for putting this into the discussion threads. Also everyone has made valid points both for and against his suggestions.
I trust those that are veterans of the group to make the right decisions.
I think that the sponsorship could work, but only if it is setup properly, and strictly adhered to.
Anyone being sponsored into a game whether it be a Sunday or Saturday mission should adhered to the standards set up.
1. Understand, follow, and comply with all rules and polices for the VU.
2. Be in TS prior to game day, at least one day or more prior to get to know the group a little and ask and answer questions if any.
2. Have confirmed knowledge that all systems are green for said person to participate.
3. Knowledge of what is expected of them before mission, in mission, and after mission.
4. Sponsor and/or a possibly more competent senior member on whisper, and possibly in their tank and at a minimum in their platoon for at least the first mission. If the players experience and abilities allow for more responsibility that can come in later missions.
5. Knowledge of this player coming into mission is known in advance of joining, and no less than 24 hours before mission.

With that said this list is in no means a set of rules or policy, and would have to be worked on by the group to include all that have input, and if not agreed upon that it would not move forward.
The DOW and TANKS missions have become more of the same as of late in how immersive they are. I suggest that we amend Sunday to be casual to the ability to have more immersive missions, but not require as strict as we do on DOW. This would allow for many different missions on Sunday.

I look forward to a good discussion on this in TS, and here as well, to make sure everyone is heard, have their input, and any outcome is the desires of the group.

 8)
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